Does anyone know what the heck this thing is?

Those are the firing pins

I had one once and those are definitely firing pins. Don't fire modern shells in it; reload hulls with black powder to protect that old gentleman.

I would back away from it. If the seller doesn’t know that it’s a cartridge gun rather than a percussion gun then they can’t be trusted to accurately describe it. It’s also a potential legal issue. If you do end up buying it, make sure it gets shipped to an FFL

Pretty sure it’d be HIGHLY illegal to turn that into a Howda.
At least without all the proper NFA hoops.

Does anyone know what the heck this thing is?

That is a double barrel shotgun (side by side)

It will fire cartridge (shotgun shells) ammunition that is commonly available.

They don't care if a smokeless load will blow up it or not they may? still go after you just because it will fit the chamber and fire also although not exactly a widespread item black powder shotgun shells can still be purchased but that is probably moot anyway.

I would not want to cut it down.

I am not familiar with C&R or every other exemption and if they do or do not apply.

Brutuskend said:

Does't that depend in what year it was made?

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Believe so. Under federal law, anything made prior to 1899 is considered an antique and exempted from the class of restrictions generally applied to firearms. However there are state laws to consider as well. But I'm no legal expert so please verify.

Brutuskend said:

Does't that depend in what year it was made?

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I doubt that the gun meets the criteria for age, but it might.
BEWARE you will need to be able to show that the gun definitely was made before 1898. People make mistakes when they find something like a stamp that says "patented 1895" or such, but that's not a manufacture date, or they find a rifle or other firearm that is a "model 1888" which is when it was introduced but NOT necessarily when their particular gun was actually rolled off the assembly line.

18 U.S. Code § 921 - Definitions
(16) The term “antique firearm” means— (A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898

LD

grter said:

It will fire cartridge (shotgun shells) ammunition that is commonly available.

They don't care if a smokeless load will blow up it or not they may? still go after you just because it will fit the chamber and fire also although not exactly a widespread item black powder shotgun shells can still be purchased but that is probably moot anyway.

I would not want to cut it down.

I am not familiar with C&R or every other exemption and if they do or do not apply.

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No way would I chance my liberty on such a project... BATF might not be amused... but if you’re not dissuaded easily, at least call them and maybe write a letter asking for clarification. Before you chop the old gun...

I have a Winchester Model 1894 made in 1894 in 30 wcf. That was the first smokeless small bore rifle cartridge (which Marlin renamed the .30-30.) It had to go through a Firearms License holder because it will chamber a cartridge that is readily available. I have a Civil War Spencer Model 1860 rifle that chambers .56-56 rimfire which did not require an FFL. While rimfire brass (and centerfire brass for Spencers with centerfire conversion blocks (Dixie and RCC)) for reloading are for sale, the black powder fixed loads are not. Both rifles are pre-1898 manufactures but the first counts as a "firearm" and the second as an "antique." Also cutting off a shotgun is a big ATF no-no as it makes it concealable. Note that there are "Coach" style shotguns for SAS that are legal and only a bit longer than the Howdahs. If you still want to buy this, you need to determine the steel with which the barrels were made before you put your money down. They maybe old bored steel, Damascus Twist steel or more modern bored steel depending on its age.
The Damascus Barrel (hunter-ed.com)

Remember that the BATF/ATF are not your friends, and they don't usually "play nice". They don't respect, or have any concern for the average citizen, and especially detest "gun nuts". (with some exceptions I'm sure) Even if you could/can prove any legality to cut it down, that may require a lawyer and many hearings and court appearances. You might even be a guest at your local jail for a few days...and even if you "win", all you'll get for that is a "sorry". They may tell you "it's okay" in advance, but later when you get pulled over and found with it, you may still spend time in jail until it is "sorted out". Also, is Oregon in general, and your location in particular, 2A "friendly"?? Will your typical Oregon State Trooper honor a letter from the ATF stating it's "okay" when you wave it in his face? Fifty percent chance maybe. Left the letter at home? Oh oh.

And if you didn't "win"....ready to spend five years or so in prison? Society, the courts, juries, police, pretty much frown upon sawed-off shotguns. Want to try and explain "howdah" to a jury of people who don't like, and don't own guns? That will be the jury the prosecution will do it's best to put together.

That was the good news. That gun looks like it's not been abused, but not exactly lovingly cared for either. At best you would only want to shoot light black powder loads. Do you reload? I think if you cut it down, which would be a shame, you won't get much use out of it, it will just be a curious freak. I sure would not sell it to anyone, even with a "letter", and be responsible for them going to jail.

She looks like a good old girl, a survivor. There is people out there that would love to have it, maybe clean it and shoot it/use it with black powder. (I have two such guns) Depending on it's actual mechanical condition. With it's patina, it looks to me like a beautiful old side-by-side...I would hate to see it turned into a bastard howdah wanna be. But maybe that's just me. Anyhow...I rest my case!!!

That reminds me, recently I bought a wrecked gun much like that, for parts. Same gun as one I have. Even though it was an non-functioning parts gun, it had to go through a FFL. So again, I'm thinking it would be difficult to get a letter from the ATF giving you it's blessings to make a sawed-off shotgun out of it. Having two old doubles like that, there's no way to date them by serial number. (usually) Normally you can get a broad estimate, like "between 1899 and 1914" or something like that. In other words, it can be impossible to prove it was made before a certain date.

Brutuskend said:

View attachment 966602 I am bidding on this with the idea of turning it into a howda.
It is a 16g belgian sxs percussion shot gun but why does it have a lever on it like a break open shot gun?
At first I thought it must have been miss marked and that it WAS a break open, but as you can see, it has nipples on it.
Any ideas as to what the lever is for??

View attachment 966597

As you can see, it would be pretty easy to chop the stock down behind the pistol grip and make it howda ish.

View attachment 966602

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Not recommended. The lever opens the action to insert shotgun shells in.

Howdas were for shooting tigers who tried to climb the elephant you were riding and get in the big box on the back of it, and eat you. That box is called a howdah, and that's where the name for a SxS pistol length shotgun came from.
Coach guns generally have 20" barrels-the total length has to be over 26" also, so you wouldn't be able to cut the stock all the way to the grip. They usually have the full stock on.

I have a double hammer gun with 18" barrels, and it is a very "handy" and short, and deadly. Yes, most "couch guns" would have 18-20" barrels. Do you know the make/maker of that gun? Sure looks like a Janssen and Sons, but most of the Belgian guns look alike. Those were good quality guns, not "cheap" as some describe them.

If the barrels are damascus I'd not cut them down. If it's for sale cheap enough to consider as a gun to modify or cut down, it's probably not. Sawing/cutting damascus barrels down would be some kind of crime for sure. The gun looks like it's been in a dry closet or attic for many years, but may be in good shape mechanically. Was there any of the bore condition or it it locks up tight in the description?

If it is in good shape mechanically, it will take healthy black powder loads just fine. These guns will usually shoot modern shells, (without blowing up) but those will shake/pound the action loose, until the action will start opening on firing. So it's a "black powder only" gun.

Round balls, double ball, or a ball over some .375" balls, or a load of .375 balls and 00 buckshot will get a cougars attention, or anything or anyone else who is bothering you.

Oh yeah, I have a friend who describes the 16 gauge this way: "kicks like a 12, shoots like a 20". !!!! Don't think that's quite true, but it is funny.

Brutuskend said:

No, there is very little info on the gun posted. Right now the high bid is $30.00.
I doubt it will stay that way however. Still, I hope it goes cheap enough that I can pick it up. Though I may not be able to howda it, I suppose I could still make it a coach gun depending on condition. There was a coach gun that sold fairly cheap on the same site not long ago. I probably should have stepped up and bought that one. As I recall, it still sold for less than I paid for my belgian SxS muzzleloader 12 bore.

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What are you looking to spend?

entropy said:

Howdas were for shooting tigers who tried to climb the elephant you were riding and get in the big box on the back of it, and eat you. That box is called a howdah, and that's where the name for a SxS pistol length shotgun came from.
Coach guns generally have 20" barrels-the total length has to be over 26" also, so you wouldn't be able to cut the stock all the way to the grip. They usually have the full stock on.

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I didn't know that. Good post!

Brutuskend said:

Doesn't that depend in what year it was made?

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If it was made before 1899, in its present condition it's an antique and exempt from federal regulation.

However, if you convert it to a Howdah ("sawed-off shotgun"), it's not an antique for purposes of the NFA. Therefore, a "making" tax and NFA registration would apply, provided it uses commercially available ammunition.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firear...rms-national-firearms-act-definitions-antique

Ok so assuming it was a muzzle loading shot gun of early manufacture and one did convert it to a Howdah style muzzle loading style muzzle loader. That was the OPs thoughts and intentions evidently.
1: How would the ATF know it occurred. ?
2: How would they determine that wasn’t the original configuration ?
3: Why would they care,? it’s a muzzle loader.