Arisaka Question

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I think its taken the absolute end of milsurp importation to finally boost many Arisakas into the collectible zone. Not too long ago you had extreme problems in getting all but the rarer models sold.. The caliber and "junk" stereo typing left very little interest in them for decades. Like many I declined buying complete pre to mid war 99s for as little as $20. Last ditch were considered worthless ( and now are gold). I was also given many many 99s and some 38's from those who just wanted them gone. Those few with the patience to keep them all these years are starting to see real returns as evidenced from on line sales. Even parts and stocks have gone way up.
 
Interesting. I’ve never even considered that this rifle might be worth more than $100. I am not inclined to sell it because I enjoy owning a piece of the history associated with it, but I’ve always thought it wouldn’t be worth more than $100. I looked at them years ago (decades) and the ones I saw were a dime a dozen. Then again, I own a beautiful M1 Garand (barrel date 8/1945) that I got through the CMP in 1990 for $165. Now I wish I could have gotten ten of them. Thanks for your perspective on this. As with the other contributions to this thread I have yet again learned something.
 
My boss had a type 99 7.7mm, the ".31 Jap"; a genuine war trophy, he was a battleship sailor in the Navy at the time and no doubt had plenty of opportunity to trade for one. But he wasn't on scene, his ship, the Pennsylvania, was torpedoed three days before VJ and was limping back to port.

He was afraid of it, too; so we lashed it to the spare tire and fired it with a string. It held up just fine and although he seldom shot it, at least he knew he had a working trophy.
 
Your welcome. Hindsight on purchases is really painful. I knew the milsurp "flood" wouldn't last and drank as deep as my finances and storage abilities allowed often selling to buy more. Did make some errors of judgment as both arisakas and thai mausers were overlooked when Mauser Broom handles were as little as 5/$100 (shipped). Shoulda bought a shipping container and grabbed everything i could. Keep your rifle and hand it down (even clandestinely given current occupying regime). Its inflation proof and (with even a few rounds of ammo) a possible lifesaver.
 
My boss had a type 99 7.7mm, the ".31 Jap"; a genuine war trophy, he was a battleship sailor in the Navy at the time and no doubt had plenty of opportunity to trade for one. But he wasn't on scene, his ship, the Pennsylvania, was torpedoed three days before VJ and was limping back to port.

He was afraid of it, too; so we lashed it to the spare tire and fired it with a string. It held up just fine and although he seldom shot it, at least he knew he had a working trophy.
LOL! Lashing it to a tire sounds hilarious but very prudent also. Thanks for the thought. I enjoy reloading so I thought, if I ever decided to try and shoot it, I would make some mild loads for it...but now I think I would lash it to a tire also. Stay safe! God Bless!
 
LOL! Lashing it to a tire sounds hilarious but very prudent also.
In Mr. Watson's case, that prudence was very practical. Many of the 7.7 rifles had .30-06 ammo fired through them, not always after Bubba put a reamer in his Craftsman or Montgomery-Wards 3/8" drill to "fix" the rifle first. Also, many of the 7.7 rifles were made in the last stages of the war, and not necessarily to the highest or most consistent standards.
The 7.7 MGs were made first, and early, and are close to bulletproof; the rifles, not so much.
 
In Mr. Watson's case, that prudence was very practical. Many of the 7.7 rifles had .30-06 ammo fired through them, not always after Bubba put a reamer in his Craftsman or Montgomery-Wards 3/8" drill to "fix" the rifle first. Also, many of the 7.7 rifles were made in the last stages of the war, and not necessarily to the highest or most consistent standards.
The 7.7 MGs were made first, and early, and are close to bulletproof; the rifles, not so much.

Thanks very much for the words of caution. Before I would even think of shooting this rifle I would have a good gunsmith go over it. I can’t imagine changing the caliber as a DIY, home project but I am sure people have tried it. Yikes!
 
I can’t imagine changing the caliber as a DIY, home project but I am sure people have tried it. Yikes!
Well, we no longer have wooden barrels of these things lurking about for $5 or $10 (when a 'good' rifle was $50 or $75, or, gasp, $150, the price of a used pick-up truck).
It was a different time.
People drilled out carburetor ports and the like with the tools they had. A drill press was "fancy" stuff to have in one's garage.
The 7.7x58 was unobtanium, and very hardware store had .30-06, and it would "almost" fit. Ream it with a file or a reamer in a drill motor, and see, works just fine. Deer rifle for $10, score! And way bettern 'em Car-Cane-Ohs.
 
Mum Is light deface and looks like it was done in a hurry or by someone who didn't want to ruin the rifle. FWIW the mum has gained such interest and value i'll bet someone has a stamp..
 
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Hello!

I took all of the input that was so thoughtfully provided by folks who followed this thread and sent it, along with the known history of the original owner of this rifle (gun collector, oil company employee deployed overseas in the 50’s and ‘60’s), to a firearm auction house that I respect very much.

I wasn’t even sure I would get a response but I got a really nice thoughtful one that basically supports many of the responses on this thread. I am providing their response below in case there is interest:

Thank you again to everyone who contributed. Please know your thoughtfulness is most appreciated!

“•On the overstamp: The “Kokura” stamp over the Imperial chrysanthemum would be consistent with a rifle that left the Imperial Japanese inventory the “easy way” (sold/gifted to another country, seconded to academy/training use, etc.) versus one that left the “hard way” (handed over to occupation authorities); the latter is more typically a fast and dirty job, either a few hard chisel-like strikes or a few taps on a grinder, before tossing it onto the pile.

Most Arisaka rifles of both the Type 38 and Type 99 configuration that made it to the U.S. were done in that rougher style. The nicer ones tended to get left over wherever they were sent, places around the Pacific or further abroad who kept them in service for some time.

While never achieving the same hype level as the Mauser 98, the core Arisaka design is very rugged and capable, and were a perfectly suitable option for any force that hadn’t made the leap to semi-auto or select fire battle rifles.

•On the finish: It does appear some sort of top coating was applied to the rifle, with the wood in particular almost looking painted. Varnish is the most likely candidate; many collectors used varnish top-coats as a way to protect guns from moisture, especially back in the days before specialty products like Renaissance Wax weren’t on the market.

While a bit crude looking, varnish was one of the best options available in the average hardware store for keeping a gun preserved long-term without a lot of intervention; an oiled gun needs regularly re-oiled, but a varnished gun can just be hung up and left alone.

Further, the varnish wouldn’t soak into wood the same way oil would, reducing the risk of unsightly dark stains where the wood soaked up too much oil. Getting it off the metal is just a matter of cleaning, as the varnish generally won’t impact the underlying metal finish. Soft cloths, light gun oil, and possibly some gentle heat will go a long way towards getting it off the metal.

The stock is a bit trickier, since it’s hard to tell if it was painted or just received a whole lot of varnish. Similar light cleaning is a good place to start, possibly with a wood cleaner (Liquid Gold is one we use in-house to freshen up gunstocks, and has shown good results on a number of woods). Heat can also help in this case.

As far as preserving the item afterwards, the aforementioned Renaissance Wax is good for protecting collectibles; for the most part we don’t bother with waxing up the guns in inventory here (we would need to repeatedly clean the wax off for photos, gun show trips, floor display, etc.), but I’ve personally used it on a number of firearms, melee weapons and hand tools at home to good effect, and has a much cleaner, fresher look than older coatings, much closer to fully transparent than the brown tone of a varnish or shellac.”
 
Hi,

I have a Japanese rifle someone literally gave me after their father died. I am a shooter, hunter, reloader and I will collect an occasional old revolver or shot gun but I know nothing about these rifles.

I read that at the end of the war Japan ground the Chrysanthemum off of their weapons before surrendering them. I have heard that rifles with the chrysanthemums intact are more valuable.

I have attached a photo and it seems like a portion of the symbol is lighter than the other portion. Would you know if the chrysanthemum has been rubbed off or is this just the way it was stamped when it was manufactured years ago.

The metal in this rifle is in amazing condition given its age but I am sure it would not be appealing to a collector because it looks like somewhere along the way someone painted the stock brown. I will probably try and strip the paint and return the stock to something resembling the original finish.

I would really value opinions regarding the chrysanthemum. Thanks for any and all information you can provide.

Stay safe, God Bless

Here are 2 pdf's of Arisaka rifles type 38 & 99. I hope this helps.
 

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FWIW, if you intend to strip the varnish/shellac from the stock use rags instead of more aggressive means.

The bottom of the buttstock, usually between the grip and the sling swivel, is
where the manufacture and possible re-work markings are located.
Assuming the stock assembly numbers match the rifle's that is.

With the bolt out of the rifle, do you see markings on the rear of the bolt release/left rear of the receiver.


Your overstamp rifle is very typical of the earlier Tokyo produced Koishikawa 38's.
Finding a straight one with a mum that has not been cancelled is harder than one might think.
Most were flat out used up by the time they attacked the U.S.

JT
 
Thanks!

I removed the bolt and looked inside the receiver to where the bolt release mechanism is and couldn’t see any sort of markings. Although it’s hard to see in there it’s difficult to imagine where any markings could be placed.

The varnish/shellac or whatever it is on the stock is pretty thick so there may be markings beneath the finish but from what I can see there doesn’t appear to be any rework markings. The stock in the area you described seems pretty smooth.

I was hoping there would be something there to give me some more clues as to the history of this rifle but thanks for the thoughts and suggestions anyway. Most appreciated!
 
The pitting on the receiver ring is probably the result of rust, that was later sandblasted off. The heaviest pitting is right at the point of balance and that is where the hand would have gripped the gun. What is interesting is that the rust stops right where the forward edge of the dust cover is positioned, when the bolt is closed. That rifle was carried by a soldier who did NOT remove his dust cover and throw it away.

Your rifle has one of the strongest, if not THE strongest action of any bolt action rifle. The type 38s (your gun) were made from the finest steels available at the time. The locking lugs are half again larger than a Mauser 98s and the left lug is not slotted for the ejector.
 
Thanks very much. I’ve gone back and forth on considering reloading for this rifle and shooting it but ultimately decided against it. I was afraid that even if it checked out favorably by a competent gunsmith it might blow up on me because it was made of “inferior steel” or just plain old age. I also will always wonder why the mum was “canceled”. Was the rifle defective somehow?

I love to reload. The idea of working up a mild load for this rifle and punching paper with this actual piece of history, on a Sunday afternoon at the range, is very appealing to me. Your comments have me considering this again.

Thanks again!
 
When considering the arisakas dumped in the sea don't forget that their popularity among collectors has really only taken off in last 5 years or so. I recall tables piled with average 99s and very few takers even up to early 2000's. Last ditchs were not even looked at by many. Interest has grown significantly with the absence of other milsurps and will continue. I have finally sold rifles that have been rafter queens for decades and now wondering if i should have waited a bit longer.
 
I mainly love the history associated with an old military rifle like this. I can’t imagine it would be worth a great deal of money, at least enough to make me want to sell it.

I have a USGI 1911 and M1 Garand. I have much better .45’s and rifles that are more accurate than the M1 but the history “hidden” in both of those firearms that interests me.
 
There was once an idiot who ground down the pilot on a 30-06 chamber reamer, so it would enter the bore of a 6.5 Japanese type 38 Arisaka and proceeded to rechamber the barrel to a 30-06. He actually fired it and shot a deer with it. The incident is mentioned by Frank DeHaas in his Book "Bolt Action Rifles. Imagine the pressures involved in pushing a .308 diameter bullet through a .264 diameter bore! The rifle itself was undamaged. The idiot took it to a gunsmith who was horrified at what he saw. The smith sent it along to the equally horrified staff at the NRA, who fired a few more 06 shells through. The gun shrugged off this abuse with indifference. There was an article on this incident in the May, 59 issue of the Rifleman.

This will give you an Idea of just how enormously strong these actions are. DeHass states that while making a rather poor sporting rifle, they can be rechambered or re-barreled to any cartridge that will fit in the magazine.

Reload away. Good luck finding brass or ammo.... Plenty of companies carry it.....and everything is on backorder.
 
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I recently collected brass for the 7.7 Japanese Arasaka, Have the dies ready. I got a typical 7.7 war bring back that has not been fired since the war.

7.7 Japanese project SOON! anybody want to join in?
 
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