Custer Anniversary Shooting

"Please Mr. Custer, I don't want to go..."

Anyone else remember that parody song by Larry Verne?

.455_Hunter said:

Relevance to this thread"s discussion?

Click to expand...

While I mean no disrespect to Jimster....I believe that Custer was an overzealous, overrated leader that through his unbridled narcissism led his company to their deaths! IMO, his war record and his post war decisions made my comment relevant! Perhaps not wanted......but, relevant!

I do admire Jimster’s desire to honor his hero, and Jimster’s knowledge of the firearms of the era! memtb

mokin said:

@Jimster Thanks for sharing a personal commemoration. Every time I see someone shooting black powder I tell myself that's something I need to get into.

@Armored farmer, I've wanted to visit the Little Big Horn battlefield for a long time.

For those really interested in the battle, I recommend "Archaeology, History, and Custer's Last Battle" by Richard Allen Fox, Jr. It's dry the only way an archaeological report can be but is highly informative. Because this is a shooting forum, there are pages and pages explaining different cartridges, bullets, who was shooting what, and maps based on the location of cartridge cases and bullets that can give a good idea of how that battle went.

Click to expand...

It’s not far from my home. A day spent there will certainly stir a lot of emotions, as you walk the area overlooking the Little Big Horn, envisioning the Indian Encampment and how the flow of the battle took place! memtb

I read somewhere that there were 20 something different caliber rounds and cases found on the battlefield. I didn't know there were that many different calibers around then. The Native Americans used every gun they could find. Talk about a re-supply nightmare!

memtb said:

As I remember the history of the encounter with JEB Stewart’s calvary......the Union Calvary was in full, undisciplined retreat, some on foot.....when JEB Stewart, was shot through the liver by a Union Calvary Soldier running for his life!

Perhaps someone well versed in the history of the War Between the States, could verify or dispute this! memtb

Click to expand...

That's the story as it was told me by my high school history teacher, a retired Pacific Theater, Marine. I grew up in Hanover County, Virginia, site of two major battles of the Civil War. The action described above happened at "Yellow Tavern" Virginia, in 1864. Sheridan/Custer were probing the Confederate defenses around Richmond as Grant's army pushed south that long summer of 1864. Yellow Tavern, is/was near the site of the present day Virginia Center Commons shopping center, just off the intersection of I-95 and 295. A dismounted Union Trooper, running to get back to his unit, saw General Stuart at close range, and fired a shot that hit the General mortally wounding him. There is a monument, pretty well hidden back of the shopping center, that marks the spot where Stuart fell if you're ever in the area. There is a house on Grace Street in Richmond, marked with a marker, where Stuart was transported to and later passed away. He is buried in Hollywood Cemetery in Richmond.

The problem of SAAs blowing up with the original 40g charge is greatly exaggerated, particularly on the internet. In Graham, Kopec, & Moore (A Study of the Colt Single Action Army) they specify the original loading for the 45 Colt cartridge was indeed 40g of black powder under a 255g RNFP bullet. A larger problem than exploding pistols was the difficulty troops had managing the recoil of this newer and more powerful handgun. If they had any experience shooting revolvers (many recruited after the Civil War had no such experience) it was with the much softer recoil of an 1860 Army or 1851 Navy. By August of 1874 Ordnance reduced the loading of the 45 Colt to 30g of powder behind a 250g projectile, that load being more manageable for the troops. Then with the Schofield debacle in 1875 the 45 cartridge was eventually reduced to the same specifications as the 45 S&W cartridge, that being 28g of black powder behind a 230g RN bullet. That remained the issue handgun ammunition until about 1892 and the adoption of the 38 Colt DA revolver.

In the civilian world, as late as 1880 UMC was cataloging "45 Colt's" loaded with 40g of powder and a 250g bullet. An 1899 Winchester catalog lists 45 Colt's loaded with 38g of powder and a 255g bullet. And in Elmer Keith's 1936 "Sixgun Cartridges & Loads" he refers to shooting Remington ammunition loaded with 40g of black powder behind a 250g bullet. Full power 45 Colt civilian ammunition was still being produced up to the start of the 20th Century and some sources indicate it was available even later than that.

Dave

MEHavey said:

A fully-loaded BP 250gr 45 Colt is a bear.
Don't let anyone say otherwise unless they've shot them themselves.

Click to expand...

Ain't that the damn truth! Shooting a full house BP load 250gr in the heat of the day with sweaty hands will quickly put some blood on the webbing of your hand!

And shooting full BP 45s will quickly convince you nobody fanned their SAAs. Trying to do so would be totally uncontrollable not to mention dangerous to everyone near the intended target.

Dave

Jen Stuart was mortally wounded at the Battle of Yellow Tavern on May 11,1864 by a withdrawing Union soldier.
In They Died With Their Boots On Errol Flynn is using what look like Remington M1875s.
Since Custer's command submitted no after action reports and Comanche the Horse never spoke about his experiences we don't know what Custer actually carried. The Little Big Horn is an excellent example of how not to fight a battle.

BLACKHAWKNJ said:

The Little Big Horn is an excellent example of how not to fight a battle.

Click to expand...

In 1879, the British probably would tend to agree
after the massacre at Isandlwana: Splitting forces,
poor intelligence, arrogance of the invaders

I was under the impression that George was intent on running for president, and a military "victory" would be a big help in that respect, and is why he didn't wait for the main body of troops to come up, and made other mistakes, glaringly obvious now, not so much in the heat of battle. He wanted full credit for defeating the tribes. ?

I always remember the line from We Were Soldiers spoken by Sam Elliott as Sgt Maj Plumley… and it won’t get quoted here but y’all know the line about Custer.

As for the political correctness, it’s a tough spot. Some groups seem to get more notice than others and it seems that Native American people in general get less appreciation than other groups. That whole “Indian Wars” or “westward expansion” chapter of American history is a mix of good, bad, and downright ugly things that happened and should be remembered as they happened. Nothing glorified or denounced, simply remembered because when it gets forgotten it gets repeated. I have taken advantage of much less of an excuse to burn gunpowder.

Think about this time line:

While Custer was busy getting his butt kicked fighting hostiles out west on the uncivilized plains in 1876, in the east Roebling was halfway done building the engineering marvel known as the Brooklyn Bridge, which is still in use today, almost 150 years later.

But no one knows who Roebling was...everyone knows Custer! Oh the price of fame.

Ugly Sauce said:

But no one knows who Roebling was...everyone knows Custer! Oh the price of fame.

Click to expand...

It doesn’t take a whole heck of a lot of stupid to get a man noticed, especially when it gets him killed. It does take a whole lot of smarts to get noticed. Being noticed is the first stop on the being remembered train, and the more you get noticed the more chance you have of being remembered. The truly spectacular examples are the people who had 1 shot at getting noticed and they did such a great job at it that they got remembered for it. Anybody ever heard of Jack Ruby? Lee Harvey Oswald?

Personally, I try to stay under the radar. I have a much more peaceful life that way.

It's like the story of Herostratus. He wanted to do something to make his name immortal-so he burned down the Temple of Artemis, one of the Seven Wonders of the World.

Whatever Custer was healed with in that battle, it proved not to be enough (that is for sure and for certain). I stood on that battle hill two weeks ago today (it does have a solemn feeling) - I looked down on the tree-lined river - they poured out of the washes and they got behind him. I wondered what it felt like with the punch-in-the-gut realization that you are not leaving that high ground under your own power - I guess when it hits you, you just fight like hell until it is over.

Ugly Sauce said:

But no one knows who Roebling was...everyone knows Custer! Oh the price of fame.

Click to expand...

But everyone knows his masterpiece, the Brooklyn Bridge.

In fact, I know the current owner and for a small consideration can put you in contact with him if you’d like to buy it.

I doubt Major Joel Elliott would be enthusiastic about calling Custer a hero.

Well, I thought it was a civil discussion, and a good original post. What did I miss?

The best and most even handed book I have read on the Little Bighorn (and there have been quite a few) is A Terrible Glory by James Donovan. I recommend it to anyone interested in the subject.

Dave