Little Big Horn battlefield pick ups

I can't confirm.....but my guess is that many were picked up. Verdigris corroded the copper shells when worn in leather cartridge belt loops...if the cartridges had been carried any other way, they probably wouldn't have had an issue.....hence the all canvas belt was introduced.....and of course copper was eventually phased out.

The Native Americans were not likely to pass up something as valuable to them as a rifle. But then again....you just never know. They were known to reload pin fire cartridges....I'm sure they could have figured out the Trapdoor issue.

I would think anything of any value was picked up.

4v50 Gary said:

Was told that the Indians picked up every Colt revolver but not the Trapdoors. They had jammed cartridges in their chambers. I know that the early soft cartridges could fail to extract, but can anyone confirm that the trapdoors themselves were not salvaged as war prizes?

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I have seen pictures of Trapdoors used by the tribes, they would decorate the stocks with brass tacks and corded leather. I cant say for sure any of these were Little Bighorn pickups, but definitely prizes from some of the Indian War battlefields.

NIGHTLORD40K said:

I have seen pictures of Trapdoors used by the tribes, they would decorate the stocks with brass tacks and corded leather. I cant say for sure any of these were Little Bighorn pickups, but definitely prizes from some of the Indian War battlefields.

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Years ago on PBS, they ran a show about archeological exploration of the Little Bighorn battlefield with modern equip especially metal detectors. They found all manner of stuff from uniform buttons to pocket knives and coins, etc.

There was an Indian family that supposedly had a trapdoor carbine their family history said was a battlefield pick up. The picture they showed was of a carbine decorated with tacks/studs, as stated above. The Nat'l Geo folks fired a 45-70 round to get the bullet. There were all manner of bullets in many calibers found, not just 45 colt and 45-70. Some ballistics lab did a search to match the carbine bullet to those found at the battle site. They did find at least one bullet that matched, thus proving the family's assertion.

The cases stuck because they were made of copper not brass. Verdigris had nothing to do with it. The fact the copper expanded and did not spring back like brass was the cause of the cases sticking in the chambers. It was not uncommon with the same era cartridges in other actions.

Kevin

There were GI broken cartridge extractors.
Not fast, nothing to depend on with the screaming hordes attacking.

PWC said:

Years ago on PBS, they ran a show about archeological exploration of the Little Bighorn battlefield with modern equip especially metal detectors. They found all manner of stuff from uniform buttons to pocket knives and coins, etc.

There was an Indian family that supposedly had a trapdoor carbine their family history said was a battlefield pick up. The picture they showed was of a carbine decorated with tacks/studs, as stated above. The Nat'l Geo folks fired a 45-70 round to get the bullet. There were all manner of bullets in many calibers found, not just 45 colt and 45-70. Some ballistics lab did a search to match the carbine bullet to those found at the battle site. They did find at least one bullet that matched, thus proving the family's assertion.

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Wait a minute, you’re saying they matched an actual bullet found at the battlefield to a specific carbine that just so happened to have been owned by an Indian family in modern times? Or am I reading this wrong?

I recall that dig documentary and it was noted that one of the Indians using a .44 henry was placed at several locations on the battlefield.....Also believe that documentary is available on U tube.........well worth watching!

My takeaway, in a historic sense, was that, during the battle, the Indians were using Winchester lever actions, which didn't jam, as readily, as the trap door rifles. In the heat of battle, this gave the Indians a considerable advantage.

This particular battle wasn't an accidental win for the Indians. Chiefs Crazy Horse, Sitting Bull, Gall, and a few others were disgusted and angered, by Custer's savage, indiscriminate, and treacherous abuse of power, and military authority, against encampments of women, children and the elderly. Their response was this well co-ordinated attack.

As to battlefield pickups, many Indians must have recognized the trap-door, while not a great choice for a combat weapon, was still very usable as a hunting rifle. But I imagine the Colt revolvers were as valued then, as they are today, and being far easier to ruck, were a first choice of spoils, among the victors.

JCooperfan1911 said:

Wait a minute, you’re saying they matched an actual bullet found at the battlefield to a specific carbine that just so happened to have been owned by an Indian family in modern times? Or am I reading this wrong?

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You are reading it correctly. The family wouldn't give up the rifle, but they allowed the NG team to get a fired bullet for the test.

Not unusual, many of us have great grandpa's gun. The historical circumstances of this guns use, in this case, were verified by modern science.

PWC said:

You are reading it correctly. The family wouldn't give up the rifle, but they allowed the NG team to get a fired bullet for the test.

Not unusual, many of us have great grandpa's gun. The historical circumstances of this guns use, in this case, were verified by modern science.

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You cannot expect that an Indian would not take a valuable war trophy off the battlefield. They did not have a portable hardware store stocked with guns and ammunition.

With modern measuring techniques, investigators were identifying unique firing pin marks from discarded empty cartridges, and determining where Troopers moved during the battle. The notoriety of the battle, the fake image of noble Custer fighting mano e mano against the "savages" has been such, real Custer battlefield weapons are extremely valuable, and very contentious in identification. (Custer was a real Civil War hero, bold beyond belief, and how he got out of that alive is due to remarkable luck. Such as Trevilian Station, but unlike Trevilian Station, no was there to pull his fat out of the fire)

I have talked to several individuals who have been to the Little Big Horn. One military guy loved it, told me a location to go to understand how the battle unfolded. A relative, absolutely uninterested in war, found the whole location boring and a fizzle.

Dibbs said:

My takeaway, in a historic sense, was that, during the battle, the Indians were using Winchester lever actions, which didn't jam, as readily, as the trap door rifles. In the heat of battle, this gave the Indians a considerable advantage.

This particular battle wasn't an accidental win for the Indians. Chiefs Crazy Horse, Sitting Bull, Gall, and a few others were disgusted and angered, by Custer's savage, indiscriminate, and treacherous abuse of power, and military authority, against encampments of women, children and the elderly. Their response was this well co-ordinated attack.

As to battlefield pickups, many Indians must have recognized the trap-door, while not a great choice for a combat weapon, was still very usable as a hunting rifle. But I imagine the Colt revolvers were as valued then, as they are today, and being far easier to ruck, were a first choice of spoils, among the victors.

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Surplus and captured Spencers were not unknown amongst the native warriors either, though I dont know if any were confirmed present at LBH.

I figure anything that shot would be of value to the Indians, those crooked trading post operators that the movies show dealing repeaters to the hostiles and which must have had real world counterparts couldn't likely fill the demand.

I believe the soldiers were issued a special pocket knife to "spear" the case as part of out. I've seen pics of copper 45-70 cases with a hole punched near the base.

No, any rifle that was not damaged beyond repair would have been taken. The tribes fought with a wide variety of weapons, from bows and arrows to muzzle loaders to some Winchesters. The idea that the tribes had Winchesters, and the Army the Springfield is wrong. They had some Winchesters and Henrys, but the Winchester didn't win the day, and the Springfield didn't lose the day. That's like saying the tribes won because they had muzzle loaders and bows and arrows.

That, and the jamming cartridge thing was a way to "explain" how the U.S. Army lost the battle. It's nonsense.

The jamming cartridge thing is highly over-rated. Cartridge cases found in the investigation/show/thingie showed that only a tiny % had any signs on them of being pry'd out of the chamber. Very few. It was not a factor.

Well, the family that has that well of a documented LBH rifle could sure get a couple of bucks for it. Imagine what that would go for at auction. !!!!$$$$$!!! I'm glad they are keeping it. Beyond a carbine being in a certain range of serial numbers, it is difficult to I.D. one as a LBH pick-up. Usually one can only say that it's in the right serial # range to have possibly been a LBH carbine.

custer just was over runned, to many indians. to me the battle was lost when custer split up his command.

eastbank said:

custer just was over runned, to may indians. to me the battle was lost when custer split up his command.

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He had a story in his head, and it was the wrong story. He did not know the real situation until it was too late. Everything I have read, Custer assumed the Indians would run off. So he sent one group to disorganize them, and he took his group up ahead, to smash them when they reacted to the first group. I bet he was surprised when he finally saw how many Indians there were down in that camp. And that they were not running away!

this is an interesting viewpoint.

https://www.historynet.com/battle-of-little-bighorn-coverup.htm/2

Custer didn’t listen to his Indian Crow scout was a big part of the problem as well.

where did the indians get their ice cream? custers last stand.

I always heard Custer's biggest failing was leaving his "heavy artillery" (Gatling Guns) behind.

Interesting article that counters that argument:
https://www.historynet.com/guns-custer-left-behind-burden.htm

Basically the terrain was too rough for the condemned horses they had to pull the Gatling Guns.

I have visited the Little Big Horn. Tried to visualize the battle. It would of been a tough hill to hold with Gatlin guns present. No where to fall back too. There is an outstanding display of both sides. Two cultures clashing..

eastbank said:

where did the indians get their ice cream? custers last stand.

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Oowwwww!

BreechFace said:

Custer didn’t listen to his Indian Crow scout was a big part of the problem as well.

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If you had to nail it down to one thing, that was it.
Not listening to or believing the Crow scouts.

As to the battlefield pickups, I think it's a loaded/baited question.
Were the trapdoors the number one prize? Maybe not, but it is hard to believe none (or very few) were taken. I would expect that anything of any value to the beholder, that there was room to carry, would be taken if it was just lying there.

I believe Sitting Bull requested his people to not pick up stuff from the battle or mutilate bodies, leave it alone as he thought it would bring really bad times. Don't think a whole lot of them listened.