Affordable AR15s to better support Second Amendment "Right to Keep and Bear Arms"

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If ars were on the shelf local for $350, my buddy might get one. He won’t at $600. But he’s into handguns and leverguns. He don’t buy online cause he’s an impulse buyer of guns. He sees it in the store and has to have it. He can resist online though because he thinks it through.
I'm sorta the opposite... I have money in the bank and a nice limit on my credit card, which I use to buy online and pay off.

I've seen it with guns, I've seen it with Amazon when I look at shopping habits: if I go to a store and browse, I almost always stick to a price point or hesitate to purchase on impulse (unless it's a smoking deal). If I'm browsing online, "add to cart" isn't a painful thing to do. I do tend to get better prices online, but I still don't pause as much as I do in front of a shelf, or pull out my wallet at the register.
 
No specific firearm has any relationship to 2A. ‘Arms” is generic term. Debating the meaning of ”arms” is like debating the difference between white and brown eggs. 2A supports the choice of weapons. Choice is dependent on capability. Younger than I can imagine using am AR15 in battle. I being near 80 would want a bolt action rifle with a good scope. Being well past the ability to engage in maneuver combat I would choose to be the fellow who pics his target and neutralizes it. 2A does not apply.
 
My son shooting his PSA Freedom AR15. I think I paid $350 for the upper and lower, plus $120 for the SIG Romeo red dot. He loves it.

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Now if you want to do the same thing, PSA has a nice selection of complete uppers, (make sure it says WITH BCG and Charging handle), and complete lowers. The lower is, of course, the serialed part and must be purchased as a firearm from an FFL. But, a quick perusal of PSA right at this exact minute;
https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-16-classic-m4-freedom-upper-with-bcg-and-charging-handle.html
Classic upper like seen above for $279.99
https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-ar15-complete-moe-ept-stealth-lower-black.html
Complete standard lower, $159.99
Total $419 and change. Of course shipping and receive fees - I am lucky as I have a local FFL who charges a whopping $10 to receive a firearm.
I did leave out that it DOES need a rear sight, and PSA has that covered...but I'm not real fond of Leapers...
https://palmettostatearmory.com/lea...g-aperture-for-ar-15-style-rifle-mnt-955.html
That's all of $29.99...but you get what you pay for. I'd suggest this,
https://palmettostatearmory.com/magpul-mbus-back-up-sight-gen-2-rear-black-mag248-blk.html
MagPul is quality, and just a few bucks more at $55.05.
So, with cheap rear sight, $449.97, with the better MagPul, $475.04.

That's pretty affordable to many. I can say without reservation that I have had many PSA products and they work quite well, no complaints.
 
So buying one of these rifles looks appealing but finding ammo does not.
 
No specific firearm has any relationship to 2A. ‘Arms” is generic term. Debating the meaning of ”arms” is like debating the difference between white and brown eggs. 2A supports the choice of weapons. Choice is dependent on capability. Younger than I can imagine using am AR15 in battle. I being near 80 would want a bolt action rifle with a good scope. Being well past the ability to engage in maneuver combat I would choose to be the fellow who pics his target and neutralizes it. 2A does not apply.

I disagree with this approach.
The purpose of the 2A was to prevent the federal government from infringing on the right of the militia to keep and bear arms, for the dual purposes of civil and national defense including defense against government rights violations.
In order for that purpose to be served the 2A must guard the "arms" that a militia uses, guarding other "arms" that are inadequate to the task would be of no use.
Historical context, the British had seized or tried to seize arms from colonial subjects on several occasions, arms in this case being flintlock muskets and the occasional artillery piece, ie. substantially what the British Army used. They did not try and confiscate pocket knives, because while they are "arms" in a sense, they are not the arms of a militia.
So the key takeaway here is that the 2A guarantees the right to "arms" which would be used by a militia, ie. a military force. Not merely a choice of some "arms", but specifically those which a modern combat force would use.
 
I can remember in around 2011-12, ads in flyers for Bushmasters on sale in the $600 range. Everyone thought that was a good price.
We didn't have an AR at the time. After Sandy Hook, with all the craziness that followed. My wife asked if we had an AR. By 2015, we had 2. :D

BTW, I built them for under $500 and thought that was really good. :)
 
For first time AR purchasers I would have a hard time suggesting a kit gun unless I would be there to help assemble the lower, PSA sells a complete upper and lower where all that you have to do is clean it good and assemble it, that might be a better choice.
I purchased ATI lowers at $25 ea, Anderson lowers at $30ea, AERO lowers at $35 ea and still have a few left, complete uppers at BCA could be had on sale for $150-200 w/free shipping. Hopefully these prices will return
 
I disagree with this approach.
The purpose of the 2A was to prevent the federal government from infringing on the right of the militia to keep and bear arms, for the dual purposes of civil and national defense including defense against government rights violations.
In order for that purpose to be served the 2A must guard the "arms" that a militia uses, guarding other "arms" that are inadequate to the task would be of no use.
Historical context, the British had seized or tried to seize arms from colonial subjects on several occasions, arms in this case being flintlock muskets and the occasional artillery piece, ie. substantially what the British Army used. They did not try and confiscate pocket knives, because while they are "arms" in a sense, they are not the arms of a militia.
So the key takeaway here is that the 2A guarantees the right to "arms" which would be used by a militia, ie. a military force. Not merely a choice of some "arms", but specifically those which a modern combat force would use.
Alright, let's point out several issues with this logic.

1. This opens the door for a subjectivist interpretation of the Second Amendment. By arguing that the Second Amendment only applies to those arms that would be relevant to the operations of a modern combat force, you're opening up the door for arguments that do things such as rationalizing bans on concealed carry and hollow-point ammunition, as modern combat forces don't carry their firearms concealed and don't use hollow-point ammunition. What you're arguing can be used to dismantle many of the legal gains that the 2A community have strived for. There's a reason why the Supreme Court spelled out in D.C. v. Heller that the 2A consists of two clauses (the Prefatory Clause and the Operative Clause) but only one of them has any legal standing.
2. While it's true that the Founding Fathers wrote the Second Amendment with the goal of defense against government tyranny, they wrote it in such a broad and, frankly, absolutist way as to protect the possession and carrying of arms in other contexts, and they did so on purpose. Saying that the Second Amendment was written solely for the purpose of protecting the ability of a militia to possess arms conducive to its functioning is ignorant of history and of the very writtings of the Founding Fathers. You could have a warship armed with dozens of cannons in 1789 and the government was fine with it: as a matter of fact, many of the naval engagements preceding the Mexican-American War were fought by private warships whose captains were issued Letters of Marque by the United States Congress. You brought up how the British Army came to confiscate muskets and artillery but not pocket knives, yet you didn't bring up private warships and Letters of Marque.
3. The spirit of the law can't be used as a modifier upon its text. The Second Amendment says, "the right of the people," not "the right of militias." Again, as the Supreme Court pointed out, the Prefatory Clause ("A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state,") explained the spirit of the law but had no effect on the Operative Clause ("the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.") It's that simple.

I suppose I could dig up a few other reasons as to why the idea of "the Second Amendment was solely written to protect militias" is absolutely nonsensical and historically unfounded, but this would become painstakingly boring and not worth my time. It's already painstaking that such an issue has to even be addressed in a forum where, logically, people should understand the scope of the Second Amendment and the historical context behind it.

The Second Amendment doesn't say "the right of militias to keep arms necessary for the purpose of civil and national defense."
 
In DC v Heller, US Supreme Court ruled that modern magazine fed semi-auto firearms such as pistols "in common use" can be used for self defense of home independent of militia service.

Second Amendment expanding to protect modern types of firearm is same as First Amendment expanding to protect modern forms of communication/free speech such as email and texting.

Courts are currently reviewing expansion of Second Amendment to include modern magazine fed semi-auto rifles with cases working their way up the court system and courts have already stated ammunition storage devices/magazines are "arms" protected by the Second Amendment. With AR15s and variants along with use of larger capacity magazines (Federally defined as larger than 15 rounds) becoming more "in common use", their proliferation will only strengthen courts/US Supreme Court rulings to expand Second Amendment protection - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ersal-14-aug-2020.873302/page-3#post-11619770

The last thread on the subject ended in flames because members can't have a simple discussion without bickering. Please, stay on topic, stay polite, and keep the thread open. But that's up to y'all...
And that's where these "affordable" AR15s come into play ... To make modern magazine fed semi-auto firearms more "common in use". It is already accepted by our society that modern magazine fed semi-auto pistols are "common in use" for self defense and this needs to expand for AR15s and variants as well.

Let's narrow our focus of this thread discussion to proliferation of AR15s becoming common due to lowering of cost down to handgun pricing to make them "common in use" for courts/US Supreme Court to expand Second Amendment protection. I am sure you want to discuss ongoing/never ending issues surrounding Second Amendment but let's keep other discussions out of this thread.

Thank you.
 
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You may be better served by first defining affordable - i.e. under $1000, under $500, under $400, etc. that you can buy complete off the shelf (if you don't want kits parts and pieces included). Than rather then link it to being the thing that saves the 2nd, which has a habit of derailing threads like this, just list em out or post a link?

$515 for a DB15 - diamondback https://www.sportsmans.com/shooting...medium=www.gunmade.com&utm_campaign=Easy+Link

$700 for a ruger https://www.sportsmans.com/shooting...medium=www.gunmade.com&utm_campaign=Easy+Link

$479 for a DPMS https://www.sportsmans.com/shooting...medium=www.gunmade.com&utm_campaign=Easy+Link

Of course, the next issue is finding them in stock, but, hey, one thing at a time.
 
You may be better served by first defining affordable - i.e. under $1000, under $500, under $400, etc. that you can buy complete off the shelf (if you don't want kits parts and pieces included). Than rather then link it to being the thing that saves the 2nd, which has a habit of derailing threads like this, just list em out or post a link?
Good point.

As already posted, I think price point of around popular pistol pricing of several hundred dollars would be considered "affordable". Under $500? Yes. Under $400? Most definitely.

The reason why I linked to underlying "meaning" of complete AR15s being affordable at $350 for the previous locked thread was because there are many people who may think buying an AR15 would be "costly". But would consider buying if they found out they were "affordable" at price point of pistols.

And I pointed out manufacturers like Ruger/Hi-Point/Taurus selling "affordable" pistols likely put more guns in people's hands to make them more "in common use" to possibly affect US Supreme Court ruling modern magazine fed semi-auto pistols to be protected under the Second Amendment for DC v Heller. While Heller 2 did not go the way of gun owners/gun rights, judge Kavanagh (Now US Supreme Court justise) wrote an eloquent dissent and argued that modern magazine fed semi-auto rifles are to be protected by the Second Amendment - https://reason.com/volokh/2018/07/09/judge-kavanaugh-and-the-second-amendment/

"In Heller, the Supreme Court held that handguns—the vast majority of which today are semi-automatic—are constitutionally protected because they have not traditionally been banned and are in common use by law-abiding citizens. There is no meaningful or persuasive constitutional distinction between semi-automatic handguns and semi-automatic rifles. Semi-automatic rifles, like semi-automatic handguns, have not traditionally been banned and are in common use by law-abiding citizens for self-defense in the home, hunting, and other lawful uses. Moreover, semi-automatic handguns are used in connection with violent crimes far more than semi-automatic rifles are. It follows from Heller's protection of semi-automatic handguns that semi-automatic rifles are also constitutionally protected and that D.C.'s ban on them is unconstitutional."
Modern magazine fed semi-auto pistols became "in common use" due to their price falling from modern manufacturing process improvements and market competition. Same thing is happening for AR15s/variants and magazines as prices are falling from modern manufacturing process improvement and market competition.

And to me, this is very important to Second Amendment as "in common use" could be the basis for the US Supreme Court to rule that modern arms (including magazines with larger capacity) are protected by the Second Amendment and we have cases headed for the Supreme Court right now.
 
The Second Amendment doesn't say "the right of militias to keep arms necessary for the purpose of civil and national defense."
No, but in the historical context there was clearly a linkage between the militia and the right to keep and bear arms. IMO Scalia got this wrong in the Heller case. The missing part is that in 1791, essentially everybody was considered to be part of the militia. There's a strong argument, unaddressed by the Supreme Court, that everybody, as members of the inchoate (unorganized) militia, is entitled to the same arms as the standing military. But this is obviously too radical an idea for the powers-that-be.

Based on this, the NFA (and especially the Hughes Amendment) would be unconstitutional.
And that's where these "affordable" AR15s come into play ... To make modern magazine fed semi-auto firearms more "common in use". It is already accepted by our society that modern magazine fed semi-auto pistols are "common in use" for self defense and this needs to expand for AR15s and variants as well.
The AR-15 is already the most popular rifle in America. Just walk around any gun show and see what's being sold. There's no question that it's "in common use." Selling more of them simply means that it's more in common use. That doesn't change the legal principle that's being applied here.
 
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Don’t forget to add $25 for the dealer transfer fee. Glad it’s only $25 here, they are doing us a favor according to them.

You may be in a place where you can't shop around for a FFL but my guy charges $15. There are several right around me that charge $10.00 but I don't care for them much.
So buying one of these rifles looks appealing but finding ammo does not.

Academy is well stocked with it. No problems finding ammo in my part of Texas.
 
I had a bushmaster that I had to sell. I just got two upper kits and lowers. I’m overjoyed at my future poverty pony builds. May not be “battle ready” to some but I’m betting if I build em right they will run fine.
 
"affordable" AR15s ... make modern magazine fed semi-auto firearms more "common in use".
The AR-15 is already the most popular rifle in America. Just walk around any gun show and see what's being sold. There's no question that it's "in common use." Selling more of them simply means that it's more in common use. That doesn't change the legal principle that's being applied here.
While the US Supreme Court ruled in DC v Heller that modern magazine fed semi-auto pistols are protected by the Second Amendment, many states are restricting modern magazine fed semi-auto rifles and "larger" capacity magazines, which the courts already called "arms".

We need rulings from the Supreme Court that the Second Amendment also protects the modern magazine fed semi-auto rifles and "larger" capacity magazines.
 
We need rulings from the Supreme Court that the Second Amendment also protects the modern magazine fed semi-auto rifles and "larger" capacity magazines.
Yes. What you're saying, in plain language, is that the SC should rule that "assault weapon" bans are unconstitutional. I would go further and say that all arbitrary weapon classifications are unconstitutional. If the Army uses it, I want to be able to have it. Why stop at half-measures?
 
SC should rule that "assault weapon" bans are unconstitutional. I would go further and say that all arbitrary weapon classifications are unconstitutional. If the Army uses it, I want to be able to have it. Why stop at half-measures?
Because "We the People" and the representatives we elected over the centuries have decided that full-auto firearms require special license/permits as they are "dangerous".

But "We the People" and the judges/justices the elected representatives appointed ruled that magazine fed semi-auto firearms (particularly pistols) are "in common use" and "not dangerous". And this ruling needs to expand to include semi-auto rifles and larger capacity magazines. And AR15 prices becoming more affordable is doing just that along with $10 AR15 magazines.
 
Yes. What you're saying, in plain language, is that the SC should rule that "assault weapon" bans are unconstitutional. I would go further and say that all arbitrary weapon classifications are unconstitutional. If the Army uses it, I want to be able to have it. Why stop at half-measures?
I want a tank and fully auto 308
 
I took it as the more people that own ARs, the fewer that people will view them (the ARs) in a negative way.
I think that was the OPs view but I'm afraid that is a skewed view and could become just the opposite when it comes to flooding the market with cheap affordable ones.

If they become the saturday night special of rifles then gangs and thugs are more likely to try to acquire them and then if they are getting used in crimes it could hurt their view from the public eyes. The anti gun views have been bad enough even though they were used in a very small number of crimes.

Edit to add, I hope I'm wrong obviously but we have to always keep in mind that many times there as an equal and opposite reaction to things.
 
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