AR10 ejection problem...what is the cure?

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mikle76

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Autauga County, Alabama
My AR10 does not like to fully eject brass. It hates IMI FMJ ammo but does MUCH better with my handloads but even with the handloads I had to clear the fired case of the last round of the magazine. The shell casing would just be laying on top of the mag follower with the bolt locked back as it should. I only got the chance to shoot a few reloads and feel like had I kept shooting, the brass on the follower trick would have started showing itself with loaded mags and jam city would follow. I'm kinda at a loss and now it's too hot to shoot. I'm just trying to go into fall with some knowledge about how to fix it. Any ideas? It would chew up IMI brass or fail to fully extract the fired round and then try to shove in a fresh round.
 
The extractor has to be firmly pushing against the case, or the case will fall off during extraction. Don't know why you malfunction would be specific to the number of rounds in a magazine.

By the way, are you using small base dies on your reloads and full length sizing the cases to a cartridge headspace minimum? You should, in a gas gun. Cases should not be an interference fit, in any way, in the chamber of gas gun. When cases drag, it causes function issues.
 
The first thing I'd do is replace the extractor and spring. If that doesn't fix it I'd look for signs of the rifle being over gassed or a buffer problem..
 
The extractor has to be firmly pushing against the case, or the case will fall off during extraction. Don't know why you malfunction would be specific to the number of rounds in a magazine.

By the way, are you using small base dies on your reloads and full length sizing the cases to a cartridge headspace minimum? You should, in a gas gun. Cases should not be an interference fit, in any way, in the chamber of gas gun. When cases drag, it causes function issues.
you have immense experience but I have reloaded 1000's of rounds for 5 semi auto never used small base dies. I think a custom target chamber you would need small base dies. for the standard military autos I had with generous chamber did not need small base dies. also his chamber might be rough and need polishing
 
Do you get a healthy ejection when slowly retracting the charging handle (using a dummy round or empty brass round if possible)?

Single or dual ejector plungers?
 
you have immense experience but I have reloaded 1000's of rounds for 5 semi auto never used small base dies. I think a custom target chamber you would need small base dies. for the standard military autos I had with generous chamber did not need small base dies. also his chamber might be rough and need polishing

I hope his chamber does not need polishing.

Even with military semi autos, they were fed new ammunition made to Army specs, which are the same dimensions as SAAMI specs. And that was for function. Most of my military rifles do have larger chambers than commercial, but even then, standard sizing dies may not reduce the brass enough to create clearance chambering and extracting. A round may barely chamber, because it is over sized, but stick on extraction. Small base dies are supposed to restore cases to "factory dimensions", but even then, brass may have expanded so much, after fired in huge chambers, that a small base die cannot size the case down enough. This is why expensive Roll Sizers are on the market. This is one example: http://www.casepro100.com/

And roll sizers would not be on the market if experienced shooters had not found they needed them for function reliability.

There are some who say small base dies are not needed in these rifles, the Gunwriter Mike Venturino has been one. For years he has been saying in print that only standard sizing dies are needed for military gas guns. But in the July 2012 issue of Guns Magazine, he is testing an 308 M1a and a AR10 and his reloads are too tight. After reading his pontificating that small base dies were not needed, I found it humorous to find him beating the bolts open with scrap lumber. At least he was honest in his experience, and maybe he learned something.

Let me tell you one of the most dangerous conditions in the Garand mechanism. Ammunition fired in a military chamber, then sized with a standard sizing die, primed with Federal primers, and fired in a match barrel in a Garand/M1a. The firing pin is free floating in a Garand type mechanism and there is no effective firing pin block to prevent the firing pin from rebounding off the primer. The firing pin is traveling its fastest just at cam down. If there is resistance to chambering, such as a fat, or over long case, that firing pin is rebounding off the primer, and the lugs are not in engagement. And if the primer ignites with the lugs out of engagement, that has hurt a number of people, and rifles.

One shooting bud wanted an accurate Garand to compete in Garand matches. He had a Wilson match barrel installed, used an old 30-06 standard sizing die he had been given. He used brass given to him, or brass he fired in the military barrel. May have been a combination of both. He did use an old 30-06 sizing die he had been given. He did not use cartridge headspace gauges to set up the dies. He sized to the shell holder plus a quarter turn. This practice is nuts for gas guns, and might not have sized his brass below SAAMI minimum length and diameter. Bud also used Federal primers and went out to zero his new match Garand. The action slamfired out of battery and blew off the receiver heel. I pulled targets with Bud, and his comment was "people ought to know how dangerous these things are to reload for".

Federal primers are the most sensitive primers on the market, and are the most slamfiring primer out there. Though there are slamfire accounts with all primers, mil spec and commercial, but Federals lead the pack. In fact, Federal used to brag that they made the most sensitive primer on the market. And they still do. Luckily, AR10's tend to slamfire in battery, but there is the chance of an out of battery slamfire in the things. Very, very rare when it happens. It has to do with bolt carrier bounce and a slight delay to ignition. The bolt carrier will bounce and turn the lugs out of battery. If a sensitive primer with a millisecond or so dwell ignites when tapped by the firing pin, the lugs might be out of battery.
 
I hope his chamber does not need polishing.
I think there are about 4-5 other issues that would more likely, but that can happen. Bought a 24" .308 target barrel that we built as my Dad's target .308. Didn't notice until it was assembled and at the range that it would not properly seat a round. In that case the chamber was just a little too tight. Sent it back for a replacement barrel and haven't had an issue since. With the upper off the lower (for safety) he should be able to drop in a round and it should seat easily. If it takes more than a little pressure then it may be the chamber.
 
I hope his chamber does not need polishing.

Even with military semi autos, they were fed new ammunition made to Army specs, which are the same dimensions as SAAMI specs. And that was for function. Most of my military rifles do have larger chambers than commercial, but even then, standard sizing dies may not reduce the brass enough to create clearance chambering and extracting. A round may barely chamber, because it is over sized, but stick on extraction. Small base dies are supposed to restore cases to "factory dimensions", but even then, brass may have expanded so much, after fired in huge chambers, that a small base die cannot size the case down enough. This is why expensive Roll Sizers are on the market. This is one example: http://www.casepro100.com/

And roll sizers would not be on the market if experienced shooters had not found they needed them for function reliability.

There are some who say small base dies are not needed in these rifles, the Gunwriter Mike Venturino has been one. For years he has been saying in print that only standard sizing dies are needed for military gas guns. But in the July 2012 issue of Guns Magazine, he is testing an 308 M1a and a AR10 and his reloads are too tight. After reading his pontificating that small base dies were not needed, I found it humorous to find him beating the bolts open with scrap lumber. At least he was honest in his experience, and maybe he learned something.

Let me tell you one of the most dangerous conditions in the Garand mechanism. Ammunition fired in a military chamber, then sized with a standard sizing die, primed with Federal primers, and fired in a match barrel in a Garand/M1a. The firing pin is free floating in a Garand type mechanism and there is no effective firing pin block to prevent the firing pin from rebounding off the primer. The firing pin is traveling its fastest just at cam down. If there is resistance to chambering, such as a fat, or over long case, that firing pin is rebounding off the primer, and the lugs are not in engagement. And if the primer ignites with the lugs out of engagement, that has hurt a number of people, and rifles.

One shooting bud wanted an accurate Garand to compete in Garand matches. He had a Wilson match barrel installed, used an old 30-06 standard sizing die he had been given. He used brass given to him, or brass he fired in the military barrel. May have been a combination of both. He did use an old 30-06 sizing die he had been given. He did not use cartridge headspace gauges to set up the dies. He sized to the shell holder plus a quarter turn. This practice is nuts for gas guns, and might not have sized his brass below SAAMI minimum length and diameter. Bud also used Federal primers and went out to zero his new match Garand. The action slamfired out of battery and blew off the receiver heel. I pulled targets with Bud, and his comment was "people ought to know how dangerous these things are to reload for".

Federal primers are the most sensitive primers on the market, and are the most slamfiring primer out there. Though there are slamfire accounts with all primers, mil spec and commercial, but Federals lead the pack. In fact, Federal used to brag that they made the most sensitive primer on the market. And they still do. Luckily, AR10's tend to slamfire in battery, but there is the chance of an out of battery slamfire in the things. Very, very rare when it happens. It has to do with bolt carrier bounce and a slight delay to ignition. The bolt carrier will bounce and turn the lugs out of battery. If a sensitive primer with a millisecond or so dwell ignites when tapped by the firing pin, the lugs might be out of battery.
you have massive in the field experience and thanks for the info. it seems that problems start with the garand and M1A when they are made into match rifles. I never needed small base dies but that is just my experience. I cannot speak for others. I always used Lee dies I dont know if that is why I never had trouble
 
I always used Lee dies I dont know if that is why I never had trouble
Rest assured, it isn’t.

I’m not sure why the point of repeatedly stating you don’t have problems instead of attempting to help the OP with his problem.

It is a strange and repeated tack to your posts.
That we are in General Discussions, rather than Rifle County I chose to address the trend.

feel like had I kept shooting, the brass on the follower trick would have started showing itself with loaded mags and jam city would follow. I'm kinda at a loss and now it's too hot to shoot. I'm just trying to go into fall with some knowledge about how to fix it. Any ideas? It would chew up IMI brass or fail to fully extract the fired round and then try to shove in a fresh round.
It’s your extractor.
It’s losing grip of the case and not popping it to the side when it hits the ejector button. Instead it’s moving forward and jamming up the works. A loose extractor or bad geometry will chew case rims as well.
A new extractor hook, and proper spring is in order.

In addition, given the factory ammunition malfunction, manufacturing tolerances could have the bases a bit small in some fashion with that lot of ammunition, allowing the hook to slip.

This may happen if your reloads are too big as well. The bolt will slam them crush fit style into the chamber. Or they won’t spring back enough and the bolt will still open, ripping the rim off. But the case will be stuck firmly in the chamber.

A supremely over gassed rifle will do all the above with functional ammunition, and horrendous imparted recoil to go with it.

May I ask what rifle you are shooting, @mikle76? Though there aren’t any hard specs for the LFAR, there may be a difference in parts you need that someone more experienced than I may know about.
 
Rest assured, it isn’t.

I’m not sure why the point of repeatedly stating you don’t have problems instead of attempting to help the OP with his problem.

It is a strange and repeated tack to your posts.
That we are in General Discussions, rather than Rifle County I chose to address the trend.


It’s your extractor.
It’s losing grip of the case and not popping it to the side when it hits the ejector button. Instead it’s moving forward and jamming up the works. A loose extractor or bad geometry will chew case rims as well.
A new extractor hook, and proper spring is in order.

In addition, given the factory ammunition malfunction, manufacturing tolerances could have the bases a bit small in some fashion with that lot of ammunition, allowing the hook to slip.

This may happen if your reloads are too big as well. The bolt will slam them crush fit style into the chamber. Or they won’t spring back enough and the bolt will still open, ripping the rim off. But the case will be stuck firmly in the chamber.

A supremely over gassed rifle will do all the above with functional ammunition, and horrendous imparted recoil to go with it.

May I ask what rifle you are shooting, @mikle76? Though there aren’t any hard specs for the LFAR, there may be a difference in parts you need that someone more experienced than I may know about.
why dont you mind your own business wasnt talking to you. I cannot help somebody that seems not to know how to reload for semi autos like screwing the sizing die a half or more turn down. I said he might have to polish his chamber and just so you dont forget I never had trouble with 1000's of reloads in mini 14 M1A M1 garand AR 15- ar 10
 
wasnt talking to you.
You are on a discussion forum. All your posts, even quotes you comment on from others, are up for debate, especially the ego stroking ones.
I can not have been the first human to tell you this…

I cannot help somebody that seems not to know how to reload for semi autos like screwing the sizing die a half or more turn down.
You can’t help because you don’t know it’s not a sizing problem when factory ammunition is used.
He stated his reloads functioned much better.

I said he might have to polish his chamber
Yeah, except when you just said it was the sizing. As well, it has never been chamber polishing for about fifty years. What would be the point of a chrome lined barrel if one had to polish it?

and just so you dont forget I never had trouble with 1000's of reloads
Aww, a weekend. How quaint.:)


I never had trouble with 1000's of reloads in mini 14 M1A M1 garand AR 15- ar 10

Let’s keep in mind this thread ain’t about you, and only one of those platforms is pertinent.
But, since you haven’t any problems in it, I suppose you have nothing to offer.

Oh look, I was right.:scrutiny:

Now that you’ve indicated to me you are butt-hurt and I have shown I will not acquiesce to your geriatric(adolescent?)outbursts, let’s see if we can get a rifle running, shall we?o_O

—————————————————
It isn’t the ammunition. It fits and fires, it even comes out of the chamber but won’t eject from the port. The empty case of the last fired round of a magazine is left laying on the mag follower, with the bolt locked back.
So, now what?
Replace the extractor hook and spring to keep the case against the bolt face until the ejector kicks it out.
If it were a weak ejector button it would still be attached to the bolt, jamming the picked up round, or shoving the empty back into the chamber on the last one.

Looking forward to an update,@mikle76.
 
My AR10 does not like to fully eject brass. It hates IMI FMJ ammo but does MUCH better with my handloads but even with the handloads I had to clear the fired case of the last round of the magazine. The shell casing would just be laying on top of the mag follower with the bolt locked back as it should. I only got the chance to shoot a few reloads and feel like had I kept shooting, the brass on the follower trick would have started showing itself with loaded mags and jam city would follow. I'm kinda at a loss and now it's too hot to shoot. I'm just trying to go into fall with some knowledge about how to fix it. Any ideas? It would chew up IMI brass or fail to fully extract the fired round and then try to shove in a fresh round.


Could we get some more details on your build ?
What mags are you using ?
What "Pattern" AR10 ? Armalite ? , DPMS ?
What gas system length and what barrel length ? Adj. GB ?
What buffer weight and "Pattern" ?
About how many rounds fired through it ?
What brand barrel ?
 
I have one of the early 2000s Armalite AR10s where extraction was a problem at times. Armalite's fix was to put an o ring of certain size in along with the spring to increase pressure on the extractor. It worked well...
 
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