Short barreled 1911 woes?

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Funny, of my three Colts, only the Officer's ACP was 100% out of the box, both full size guns had issues, one minor the other, was my worst out of the box new gun experience ever, but that's another story.

Also have a 3" Kimber Ultra Carry and Charles Daly CS which both were 100% out of the box, I've not shot the Officer's ACP much, but both the Kimber and the Daly needed recoil spring replacement and extractor retensioning at ~800 rounds, so I'd agree the little guns are much higher maintainence.

--wally.
 
short 1911

If anyone's interested I may make ya a deal on a gi micro Tuner fixed up for me.May need the money for another purchase.:)
 
Joe's Micro

kart racer said:
If anyone's interested I may make ya a deal on a gi micro Tuner fixed up for me.May need the money for another purchase.:)

:what:

After I sweated, cussed, cried and prayed over that thing to get it runnin'...You're gonna SELL IT???

That's it! I'm gonna starve the dogs for a few days and invite ya over for supper...:evil:
 
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Originally posted by Old Fuff

But try a Commander-sized upper on a compact frame assembly.
Yes, please do. They are much more reliable in my experience.

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tuner

Just jokin,I've actually started to become kinda fond of it.:evil: I'm not sellin,I couldn't do that to ya-plus I want to see what happens when the round count gets up on it.But,if ya run across a champion slide and barrel I'd have a new project for ya.
 
What the critical difference in the function of a short barreled 1911 pattern vs other non-1911 patterns that makes them less troublesome?
#1 The locking lugs on the barrel have to drop the same distance to unlock no matter how long the barrel is. The shorter the barrel the steeper the angle becomes when the barrel unlocks. This steeper angle is exacerbated if the design uses a bushing since the barrel still has to tilt inside the bushing.

#2 The slide still has to move rearward far enough to feed and eject. The shorter slide means you need fit the spring, of the essentially the same strength, into a much shorter area.

#3 The shorter slide has, of course, less mass. Less mass means less momentum and that affects ejection and feeding.

And we haven't even touched on the problems of that shorter magazine.
 
Other than minus one round, what would be the problems with the shorter magazine?

Full size mags have also worked fine in my small single stack 1911s if you don't mind them hanging outside the grip.


Maybe I've just been lucky, but other than rather short recoil spring life I haven't had any issues with my three micro sized 1911s. I think thay are neat, but are still too big and heavy for me to carry most of the year, but I'm very happy when I can carry one (Kimber Ultra Carry with CTC lasergrips).

--wally.
 
Colt Defender

Yeah, I got a Colt Defender a few years back as a "summer" carry piece. It was great to carry, accurate to shoot and slightly easier than a full size to clean.

BUT...I simply couldn't establish it as a relaibel carry piece. At least 1 FTF/FTE in 21 rds. The only ammo that gave me decent reliabilty was plain old ball ammo - and even that wasn't flawless.

I've pretty much consigned it to the deepest, darkest depths of my safe. Yeah, sometime, with a twinge of regret I'll pull it out and take it to the range. Unfortunately, short barrelled 1911 style platforms don't improve with time :barf: .

I've just adjusted to the reality of the situation and if I'm going to CCW a .45 - its a full size 1911. With a proper holster (a thin Kramer IWB) I find I can carry it winter (layered up) or under a t-shirt/shorts summer get up.
 
re:

I'm backin' outta this one. I'm scared that somebody'll be close enough to bring me another one of the little buggers, and I'll be--->:cuss: :banghead:
all over again. I ain't no spring chicken, and I gotta watch my blood pressure.
The last two I jumped into weaned me!:D
 
No fears Tuner. While I love a nice drive through the South now and again, my Fall road trip to Nashville consumed all my time off. So - I'm afraid you'll not be getting your hands on my new SA.

DId talk with a local tuner this afternoon - I'm thinking he'll be seeing me again.

He looks young enough to take the insanity.

-
 
All I can say is I hope that Dan Wesson doesn't decide to make a compact.

I have one of the new CZ/DW bobtail commanders on the bench right now that's been giving me fits all week.
They really need to work on their quality control.
 
DWA

BluesBear said:
All I can say is I hope that Dan Wesson doesn't decide to make a compact.

I have one of the new CZ/DW bobtail commanders on the bench right now that's been giving me fits all week.
They really need to work on their quality control.

What they need (or needed) to is look at a blueprint instead of a generic drawing.

The Bobtail...Unmodified GM configuration at the front of the #3 lug and front of the lower lug with a shortened bushing? Extended GM-type ejector instead of the Colt design? (Right side offset toward the breechface centerline)

Years ago, when I hit my first wall with the Detonics shorites...I came up with an interesting theory that seems to have been borne out over the years...At least the evidence seems to point to it.

For a recoil-operated system to function, there are 4 criteria:

1. The bullet has to be there.

2. The bullet has to be there for a long enough period of time.

3. There must be a sufficient vector of force between slide and bullet to overcome their resistance to acceleration.

4. The bullet has to move.

Go to #2 and think about it...then consider Kuhnhausen's "Balanced Thrust Vector" theory...which is wrong, by the way...and think about it while considering this one. >>If the bullet exits BEFORE the slide moves, the slide WON'T move.<<

When you cut the barrel back to three inches, you've lost 40% of the bullet's dwell time within the barrel. So along the same line, you can plug in the theory that I came up with: >If the bullet exits too early, the slide doesn't have time to get its full dose of momentum from the bullet...and short-cycles<
Note that short-cycling seems to make up the majority of complaints with the chopped variants. While this is partly due to the high recoil spring loads and rates, the bullet dwell time and the reduced slide mass are also heavy players. They have to be.

When considering slide mass, remember that....like springs...it works both ways. Yes. The slides are lighter and don't require as much push to get'em movin'...BUT...Applying Newton's thing about objects in motion tend to remain in motion would dictate that the less massive slide wouldn't conserve its momentum as efficiently as a 5-inch slide, especially against that gawdawful recoil spring.

I've found that...not in all cases, but often enough to feel that the theory is at least worthy of strong consideration...the pistols that choke on the 185-grain screamers loaded to +P levels will very often function perfectly with standard 230-grain ammo. AND...the ones that short-cycle on standard ammo will function with handloads stoked with 250-grain bullets at standard
or slightly below standard pressure levels.

I've had a couple of mathematicans try to disprove it with 2-page equations and formulae...but like a wise man once said: "When the theory doesn't agree with the evidence...Go with the evidence."

Yogi Berra said it better:

"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice...they ain't."
 
1911Tuner said:
For a recoil-operated system to function, there are 4 criteria:

1. The bullet has to be there.

2. The bullet has to be there for a long enough period of time.

3. There must be a sufficient vector of force between slide and bullet to overcome their resistance to acceleration.

4. The bullet has to move.
I had read a thread over on 1911.org where you presented this. Before I had read it I pretty much knew where limp wristing could cause problems.

This (#3) puts it all togehter. Slides going nowhere if the force is used to move the frame of the pistol backwards with it.

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#3

Janitor said:
I had read a thread over on 1911.org where you presented this. Before I had read it I pretty much knew where limp wristing could cause problems.

This (#3) puts it all togehter. Slides going nowhere if the force is used to move the frame of the pistol backwards with it.

-

Very true, but the recoil spring is usually the deciding factor in limp-grip induced short-cycling. If the 5-inch guns will slam the slide rearward with 22 or 24 pound springs...and they will...it would seem that the shorties would too. The difference is in the slide mass and the time that the bullet spends influencing the slide. Go back and ponder on #s 1 and 2 for a while...then on the statement: If the bullet exits before the slide moves...the slide won't move, and it'll start to make more sense.
 
Go back and ponder on #s 1 and 2 for a while...then on the statement: If the bullet exits before the slide moves...the slide won't move, and it'll start to make more sense.
Actually, I did just that while I drove in this morning (40 minute drive, so I had time). And you're right. It all makes sense. It's (imo) a very good explanation you have there.

Think about -

Equip a 1911 with a super lightweight radio controlled solanoid hooked to the trigger. Lay the gun on it's side on a smooth, frozen lake, early in the season on a warm day. Release the trigger w/ your radio.

I'm sure the bullet will come out the muzzle, but I wonder what the muzzle velocity would be. I'm guessing somewhere around 50% of what it will be if somebody were holding on to the pistol. Impossible to say w/o knowing all the factors and math behind the inertial forces holding the pistol in it's place on the ice. Same forces that need to be overcome to move the slide.

Speaking of slide, I'm guessing it wouldn't even attempt to cycle.
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Tuner, I am a 100% dyed-in-the-wool .45 caliber,230 grain, standard pressure sorta guy (that is, I like rounds loaded to the same specs I exhibit; fat, heavy & slow); that could explain my positive experience with my shorties . . .
 
re:

Pretty good analogy, but a tricky experiment to do. A simpler, real-world way to understand it is to beg, borrow, or buy a .308 caliber rifle and some handloading equipment.

Run down to Wally-World and pick up a box of 180-grain soft point ammo,
then go to the gun shop and buy a box of 110-grain Speer half-jacketed
"Plinker" bullets. Load those up to just under max for about 3400 fps.
The factory 180s will hit the screens at about 2400, give or take.

From standing, fire both back to back a few times and pay attention to how the recoil feels. The lightweight screamers will produce a quick slap, while the heavy sluggers will shove you backward over a longer time. In this experiment, the rifle essentially becomes the "slide."

Simply stated...Recoil occurs while the bullet is in the barrel. Once it's gone, there is no more recoil, and any movement after that is purely on momentum.
Bullet exits faster...Recoil ends sooner, and vice-versa.
 
1911Tuner said:
Pretty good analogy, but a tricky experiment to do. A simpler, real-world way to understand it is to beg, borrow, or buy a .308 caliber rifle and some handloading equipment.

Run down to Wally-World and pick up a box of 180-grain soft point ammo,
then go to the gun shop and buy a box of 110-grain Speer half-jacketed
"Plinker" bullets. Load those up to just under max for about 3400 fps.
The factory 180s will hit the screens at about 2400, give or take.

From standing, fire both back to back a few times and pay attention to how the recoil feels. The lightweight screamers will produce a quick slap, while the heavy sluggers will shove you backward over a longer time. In this experiment, the rifle essentially becomes the "slide."

Simply stated...Recoil occurs while the bullet is in the barrel. Once it's gone, there is no more recoil, and any movement after that is purely on momentum.
Bullet exits faster...Recoil ends sooner, and vice-versa.
Actually, I don't think the differences have to be as great as your .308 model to feel the results. I've noticed them before and never really given it all that much consideration. Certainly not any consideration as to how it applies to affecting how my 1911 will cycle. But my wheel gun can produce the same evidence with 158gn .38 spl & 125gn .357 mag loads. Even with just a 4" barrel.

The recoil isn't just higher amplitude with the .357 - it's faster, and shorter lived.
-
 
Janitor said:
The recoil isn't just higher amplitude with the .357 - it's faster, and shorter lived.-


Exactly!

The 1911's recoil-operated part of the function is very short and fast...which is partly why it's so forgiving as to the ammunition used in it...but it's not without limits. A point is eventually reached that the gun just won't do what it was designed to do, and I'd say that the toymakers have reached it with the 3-inch barrels. Maybe a gas-operated two-incher is just down the road though...I can hardly wait.:rolleyes:
 
this is why i now own one of these... a sig 245...

having said that , i did have an original detonics mk??? that never malfunctioned with any load/bullet weight all the years i had it ... couldn't get it to NOT work with any load that would function a fullsize...

(freaking picture won't post , wt#$$%^&**h ?)
 
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