An Appeal From 'Down Under'

While there are other Aussies here....

Have you visited the "c.l.a.s.s." website?

http://www.c-l-a-s-s.net/idea.htm

Please have a look-

Lots of good stuff there for debating with Aussie antis.

Hi Fallingblock.

Thank you for drawing my attention to that link!

What I have seen so far looks very promising.

I see that I shall have a spot of reading to do on the weekend.

Cheers!

Warrigal

Some highlights:

That the only way to end gun violence is to ban guns, just like the only way to end medical malpractice is to ban doctors.

Click to expand...

That killing a triple murderer so you don't become the fourth victim is "escalating the violence."

Click to expand...

That most people can't be trusted, so we should have laws against guns, which most people will abide by, because they can be trusted.

Click to expand...

That people who own guns out of a fear of crime are paranoid, but people who don't want other people to own guns in case it causes them to commit crimes are rational.

Click to expand...

That a $12 an hour security guard can protect money with a gun, but you cannot protect your children with one.

Click to expand...

Freedom of Speech

Nothing of course could be further from the truth.
Some posters resort to the abuse of posters of opposing views or attempt to shoot the messengerwhich they think will prohibit their postings


They think if they apply enouh pressure we wont let the bad guys post

These people are banned for that reason and not because
of the viewpoint

No doubt youve sent letters to Newspapers where the
editor ignores them.Well it works the other way around
Pro gunners who are polite and well mannered have no problem in refuting the claims of anti gunners without
resorting to some of the shocking abuse we have seen which only brings their positive stance into ilrepute.
Also there is something useful in hearing what others
are saying. You can put them right.

I thought I would give you an example of what a post is like that is likely to get a poster banned

--------------------------------------------------
he said

I wouldn't worry about them.

They aren't going to reply.

None of them have the capability of putting together a single, coherent, original thought. They rely instead, on the rehearsed rhetoric of their group.

Before they defecate, they have a group meeting each time to try to remember how it's done, which explains why they are so full of it. They simply don't know how to rid themselves of it.

They're just scum.

Not Tom ( Darius)

---------------------------------------------

No content just abuse

Since then he has been trying the raise a rent a crowd
or a lynch mob rather than combating the opinions of the anti gun posters.

Which of course hurts me as I can see them running riot.


I can assure you all can post

There are no ISP bans in place anyway. I put them on only
for 30 Minutes.

But when a Swear Word is spammed 50 Times to spoil. I have to gave some switch

I guess I have to be a Bad Sherif and look the other way?

By the way Hi to our US mates. We had Condy down under here the other day talking about IRAQ and thanks for her nice remark about the USA having no greater friend than Australia. Your Young people are fighting and dying for democracy.We owe them everything.There are no finer people in the world than the Americans

Now that we have the FTA between us why cant we equalise your superior gun laws

Keith

Bob


I think youve got to understand that it is possible that the
people you mention (anti gunners) do exist out there
I see on one other post someone said about somewhere else

There are a few pro gun posters there but most seem young and inexperienced in the art of debate so the antis there are having a field day with them.

Im sorry for you but as you know I can see the ISP addresses and multple posting names (Lost count yourself?) and Sirena, Zassy are posters like anyone else
who can gave a say,as are Tom,Lennie,straightshooter
and Charlie NoGun

But The path you take is to to kill Aussieseek,the messenger because with respect could you not give them answers?

duh. Dont you approve of freedom of the Press for ALL to post views?

Why didnt you come here and say..Im having trouble answering them. I need help

Good content and discussion is always welcome.

By the way Abuse,insults and selecting the wrong targets such as the Forum instead of the content by the poster
is not

I see on the Aussieseek Forum youre also nice.. But in this place and elsewhere you never had a problem with shooting us in the back.

But that is fine. Its a shame you dont concentrate on providing the many logical sane arguments worth hearing

understand?

Keith

Cortez

Please see Forum Rule #4 regarding acceptable conduct here. - BR

I seems strange that I am able to participate in forums all across the world, over a wide range of the political spectrum, but not on Aussieseek.
Most discussions can be boiled down to very brief and basic levels, and need no long and windy speeches. When I see an effort to "baffle them with brilliance, dazzle them with boolsheet", I tend to "cut to the chase", and reply in simple terms. When I cannot get a counter response, in equally simple terms, oh well, victory by default!
Tsu la left, Keitha, did you know that she is a biological research doctor at one of your most prestigious universities? She is not willing to subject herself to abuse, and should not have to. There are many others, Keitha! They would be an asset to any forum.
My only concern with any of this is that so long as freedom is under attack anywhere, my freedom is endangered, particularily when so many nations, including yours, are part of U.N. efforts to impose global standards limiting my constitutional rights. Rebecca Peters may not be a natural Australian, but you sure do get credit for her.
You are welcome here, as far as I have a say, hang around, listen, and you will find American Democrats and American Republicans with a common goal. We call it American Liberty.

Just a quick reminder to everyone regarding Forum Rules. If you have past issues from other forums, the place to discuss those is via Private Message,

If you want to discuss the right to keep and bear arms in a civil fashion, this is the thread for you.

Just posted, name "Pacifist", trying in vain to masquerade as one of them.

No animosity whatsoever, Nematocyst 870...

Take it to PM - BR

BACK on topic:

Warrigal: I've used some of those quips on the c.l.a.s.s. site to good effect with local "antis". It's fun to watch their eyes go blank as the thought process collapses.

Go for it Spiphel Rike...

Is someone translating what AUSSIESEEK is posting here?
Is it my aged eyes -or could there be a serious deficit of punctuation in those posts?

The Eyes Have it

I dont know. I am blind and use shark and other talking software. We have about 40 Pro gunners a 2 Anti gunners who mostly just repaste Brady Junk
Its a normal board not a gun board.
All posts get up but those that persist with abuse are deleted. This seen by some gunners as censorship, but worse than that as an excuse to spam 400
posting of F words and kill the messenger spams

I see a few of them organising a lynch mob on your site and using it to libel us
I know your reading this already will be colored with suspicion but I just plead for you to be aware


Australia is a different place and I was talking to a politician the other day who gets feedback from our site. he said

Hi Keith, how are those (Edited to comply with Forum Rules - BR) gunners ?

I said, theyre not like that but we have a few problems

I just ask that you be aware that two of them have made specific threats and I ask that you in the normal course of your terms of service would not give endorsement by publication ot allow them to create a hysteria against us on your platform

All pro gun or anti gun postings without abuse are printed

Thanking You

Keith Ashton

RE: Aussie Seek and Keith Ashton

It's very easy to accuse people of "spamming" and "abuse" after you have deleted their posts from a forum and banned the people who posted.

It is significant that this Keith Ashton comes to this forum whinging about the way some pro gunners are behaving on his forum. What he is trying to achieve is have those same people he has banned on his forum, banned on this one as well, by planting the idea that we are trouble makers.

The trouble we are trying to make is for the anti-gun contributors on his forum. He is especially fond of an American anti-gun poster who goes under the name of "Tom" an alleged female from Atlanta Georgia who is rabidly anti gun and appears to be a mouthpiece for your Brady organisation.

Her postings are slanderous in the extreme and any attempt by pro gunners to refute any of the things she says, sees either the posting removed or the poster banned instantly. Her stuff is never touched regardless of how outrageous it is. THis alone speaks volumes about the real nature of the Aussie Seek forum.

Don't be taken in by this guy. His site is used to try to stir up legal gun owners so that he can refer their protests to a politician friend of his who is also rabidly anti gun.

What started all of this was the response by pro gun supporters to one of "TOM's" outrageous posts. The action taken by Keith and his admin people was as follows:

Gun Content Removed
« Thread Started on Mar 15, 2006, 11:44pm »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Following the attacks on the forum by Darius,Alex and rifleman - tysia.John JHN NotOnYourNellie
all gun content whether supportive or not has been removed

Their mischief was to kill the messenger (us) to stop any anti gun content appearing

An attack on Free Speech by gun owners

This has meant the removal of hundreds of posts and posting facilities for members and Guests
It required a great deal of support and we do not have staff that are interested or could handle the abuse by gun owners or posts such as put up by darius posting as not Tom as below

Click to expand...

THis was "TOM's" response to this:

Re: Gun Content Removed
« Reply #2 on Mar 16, 2006, 8:18pm »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Moderator

I dont see why I have to suffer because these people cause you such a problem and you react in a knee jerk fashion and remove all the Gun Discussion including valuable links such as

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8839949&dopt=Abstract

It is true that the silent major majority wish guns to be banned but they are not funded or organised as well as the problem posters you have

As we are in a disadvantaged position I ask that you carry our posts but give no coverage to them

Have a nice day

Tom
« Last Edit: Mar 16, 2006, 8:23pm by AussieSeek Search Engine » Link to Post - Back to Top Logged

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your laws ignore our deepest needs
Your words are empty air
You've stripped away our heritage
You've outlawed simple prayer
Now gunshots fill our classrooms
And precious children die
You seek answers everywhere
And ask the question "Why"?

You regulate restrictive laws
Through legislative creed
And yet you fail to understand
God is what we need
Pray for a Ban on Guns

*TOM*

Click to expand...

All pro gun Americans ought to read the "valuable link" she mentions above - you'll just love it.


And as a small example of the sort of claptrap that TOM produces I offer the following from one of her threads:

There is no fundamental right to own firearms
« Thread Started on Mar 21, 2006, 9:27pm »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can say with confidence that There is no fundamental right to own firearms
Gun control legislation reduces violent crime
Guns are more dangerous to the owners than to intended targets because most gun related deaths are a result of domestic violence, accidents, and suicides
Guns are of little use as self defense for the typical owner because in incidents where a hostile encounter with an armed criminal occurs, the criminal is often more experienced and skilled with his/her weapon; also, criminals may act in groups.
Even against unarmed criminals, the presence of a gun serves more often to escalate the likelihood and/or severity of violence
Citizens have no need to own guns to protect themselves against crime because government is tasked with that obligation
Citizens need to protect themselves against crime, but owning firearms is not a good way to accomplish this
Citizens of First World countries today have no need to protect themselves against their governments if they are vigilant and confront government wrongdoing before violence is necessary, or that even if such a need should arise, it would be hopeless to take up individual small arms against the modern military technology that a government would bring to bear.
Guns, being devices implicitly designed to kill, raise the level of violence in any disagreement between people.
Gun control, properly and judiciously applied, lessens (though cannot eradicate) the possibility that criminals will obtain firearms.
Fewer guns means fewer deaths relative to homicide, suicide, and unintentional deaths
No one on this board seems to be able to give alternative views

Debate and Answer these Points

Why is it that In all the Pro US Gun States the death by Gun Rates are the Highest (Information from US State Government Death Stats)

Why are there so many School shootings in the USA?

CYA

Tom

Click to expand...

I'd be happy to put more in but her posts are generally so long that you'd go to sleep trying to get to the end of them.

If you want to know what really goes on on the Aussie Seek forum, come and have a peek:

http://aussieseek.proboards25.com/index.cgi

Enjoy!!!

Yow! I see what you mean, Cortez...

That's one seriously twisted-up anti there!

Assuming that Aussieseek is genuine about letting you get some facts into the discussion, here are three more good sites for refuting "Tom" foolery:

http://www.guncite.com/

http://www.keepandbeararms.com/

http://www.jpfo.org/ragingagainstselfdefense.htm

(this one is especially appropriate for the likes of "Tom" )

Could you find any way around the laws in the forseeable future?

G'day all of you Australian shooters, I have been doing some research on the internet and on this forum, on the content of your firearm-laws and I have to say,you have the worst Prime-minister in living memory John bloody Howard running your country. He is even worse than John Major and Tony Blair and even Paddy Ashdown,-the former Liberal-Democrat leader.

This man calls himself a Tory and acts as though he is a member of the Liberals.How the hell can he call himself a Conservative, when he pays lip-service to conservative values-including shooting???????? What a Wanker!!!!!!!!!!!
"I hate GUNS" WELL I THINK AUSSIE SHOOTERS HATE YOU. Edited to comply with forum rules - BR

In the UK we have had it tough, in terms of unwarranted attacks on our sport and the banning of full-bore self-loading centrefire rifles and later most kinds of pistols-but at least our pump and semi-auto rimfire rifles and shotties have remained safe to this day, THANK GOD, BUT NO OFFENCE AS YOUR RESTRICTIONS ALSO ANGER ME COMPLETELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

On the other hand, you guys have certainly had it tough with the Port Arthur Massacre and all of the fallout and bollocks that accompanied it,but at least you still have proper pistols to shoot and can compete in most disciplines, that we in the UK cannot compete in, these days.

Do any of you think that your government or any government in the forseeable future, will drop the ban on military-appearance rifles?If they do then you can recieve military-style straight-pull rifles from us in the UK-if you want, so you can have the use of an AR-15, or Ruger M14 again, but in a bolt-action format.

It probably seems unlikely that this will happen because of that pompus prat Howard,preaching his anti-gun bull, but one can hope and pray.

Do you or have any of you travelled to New-Zealand or even abroad to countries like the USA or even the UK, to shoot pump and semi-auto shotguns again and take part in sporting clays and practical disciplines?

Can any of you tell me if there are planned further restrictions and possibly bans on pistols and other legally-permitted firearms in Australia. If you look at our laws and what we have to do in order to get a license, it is far easier to acquire one here in the UK than in Australia, because we don't have to pass any exams to get a license. Training courses and exams in the UK are optional, but are prefered by some police forces, in terms of individual competantcy.

The one thing that is totally ridiculous, is having to wait 30 editp/i] months for a collectors permit, to acquire a black-powder revolver, because in the UK these weapons can be required in a matter of a few-months, depending on your police force.

To think that my country was bad, in terms of anti-gun hostility, Iv'e only got to look at the wonderful land of OZ, to see that there are others suffering injustice, because of Martin Bryant-wait he's too thick to pull-off a massacre like that in Port Arthur. Isn't he border-line retarded or was he set up?Hmmmmm John Creepy Howard, you've got a lot to answer for.

The next person to make a post in this thread that needs editing to comply with the rules is going to get the post deleted and a special incentive to visit some other forum where I don't have to spend my free time watching them.

If you need a refresher about what is acceptable here, please consult the Forum Rules link in the upper right hand corner of your browser.

An explaination of what had happend

The post that I supposedly sent a couple of days ago,-I didn't send because I was out and about with one of my friends in London, at the time it was posted.My girlfiend had had some of her friends over and this included some guys that I knew from school who turned up with her friends-and these guys, I dont think like me at all, because they think that I am a weird gun nut and that I am mental, that I have tourette-syndrome.

My drawers were raided and my rough-posts were taken and one of them was the one that was sent a couple of days ago-was modified, specifically offend people and was posted so that I would look like a complete fool in front of everybody and would get kicked-off by a moderator, like Mr Roberts.

My password and username were also taken from my drawer, in my bedroom.

One post that was taken and modified to impersonate my rantings, was actually a post destined for another forum that tolerates moderate language-not for this forum.

So I apologise for any persons who were offended because of the actions of these idiots who thought it was funny to impersonate myself and to trash my name on an internet forum, by posting offensive posts. I did not join up to get shunned and rejected by other members.

I had words with these blokes and I demanded an apology be made on behalf of those who were offended but they laughed and said:"No and what are you going to do about it?" and started to push me around, so I hit one of them and I wrestled with another one and stuck his head down my toilet and flushed it twice, whilst hitting his back.

Now some might think that what I did was extreme, but this was also for other obscene insults made against me in the past.I sent the guy packing stinking of toilet water.

They won't come online anymore, because if they do and I hear about it, they will have to stay in hospital for a few-weeks.

I am telling the truth so if you don't believed me, well thats your decision, to make.

So You can see what I mean

Yes Fallingblock
So You can see what I mean
heres the latest fromTOM
---------------------------------------
Posted by Tom

---
Yes Lennie. about the messageboards at Aussieseek.com We read and understood your Post and agree with you. There are lots of things in life apart from Guns.
This Board is called and was always The Australian Political Forum.Its a great resource but have you noticed how the Gun People moved in and tookover the Forum" They never cared for you Mr Moderator or the readers or the members
They Hate YOU !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ive seen what youve done for them.What have they done for You?
Look at John and his spam again tonight
Theyre laughing at you..
When You wouldnt let them post abuse they spammed the
site and even created a rent a crowd of gun owners as they moved in for the kill.The only reason they are here is because of us.They are all males and looking for a fight.
Ive never seen them post a general topic yet.
Theyre Brain Dead.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now Ive got a theory and that is that they are holding you to ransom at gunpoint. I bet youre happy to see some general topics back in the board, with Lennie and those Ive seen from you we can get it back on track.
From what I know Talkback Radio which is like this site discusses a lot of topics. They dont talk about Guns all day. But thats all these Gun people do.I had a meeting with SS and we think that the best way to get our message across to a wide variety of people was to blend in.
But not in their BANG BANG world. Lets try the real world.
It wont be hard for us because we are nice people.Only a small percentage of Gun Owners replies on this board supply real stats. But to hell with their figures. Guns cause a lot of crime and suffering..
And thats the truth.

----------------

Remark from Keith

mmmmm Brady is active in Australia..and Did a great Job on the Prime Minister, John Howard
Pity the NRA wasnt.
They se

Its time we all put these sodding antis in their place

TO ALL OF YOU ANTIS POSTING ON THIS FORUM, UNDER ANY USERNAMES- IF THERE ARE ANY HERE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I as a Brit respect you and your rights-in terms of freedom of speech-but you should not make bloody stupid comments about shooters that you do not know personally,interms of their character.I don't give a damn about your facts on guns and crime, because thats total and utter crap. Most criminals wouldn't want to steal guns in your country, because they are licensed and easily tracable by the police.The same logic is applied here in the UK.Plus they can get a good selection of illegal guns, imported via the docks.

Why can't you be bloody honest with yourselves and admit that you don't like guns because they were originally designed to kill and that you can't trust anyone that owns any firearm on a license, because you feel they might go crazy and misuse them, in the present or near-future.

You make a hell of alot noise about guns and that we are the bigots, but what does that make you?I'll tell you what that make you-it makes you a bunch of bigots in return because you don't respect our views,you think of us as a bunch of idiots, you don't know enough about shooting and you don't want to learn about it either, from any of us.

I could go on for hours on end, but the main thing is, that whilst you are on this forum, you will respect all of our rights as shooters as we would respect yours and please do not try and tell us that they are evil or whatever because if you do, you will be severly insulted by over-zealous shooters.

GET YOU FACTS STRAIGHT BEFORE YOU POST,-YOU HATE GUNS FINE BUT DON'T LAUNCH ATTACKS ON ANY OF US PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you don't agree with my views you can all get stuffed and rooted.

Ewww, Aussieseek.....

"But to hell with their figures. Guns cause a lot of crime and suffering..
And thats the truth."
**********************************************************

That's an example of the most blatant nonsense presented by the anti-crowd:

Having been a shooter since the age of five and a gun-owner for the past fifty years, I can assure you (and Tom) that no gun either singularly or collectively is capable of any "cause a lot of crime and suffering" intent.

People who use guns (or knives, IED's, bats or fists) ARE capable of forming intent and are to blame for such "crime and suffering."

Tom is obviously suffering from a delusional state.

Blaming an inanimate object for its use is not only unproductive,
it is simply irrational.


As for Keith:
**********************************************************
"mmmmm Brady is active in Australia..and Did a great Job on the Prime Minister, John Howard. Pity the NRA wasnt."
**********************************************************


Care to supply documentation to support either contention?

Rebecca Peters and the CGCA did the vast majority of 'work' on little Johnny-
not that much was needed. The bulk of the legislation was in draft form from the Keating government and was awaiting the political 'will' (read: "treachery") for implementation.

Say folks, Australia's "gun control" has really been splendidly effective in reducing violent crime, wouldn't you say? Uh, maybe not.....

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national...y-crime-victims/2006/03/28/1143441146782.html


***********************************************************
Australians most likely to be victim of crime
March 28, 2006 - 8:35PM

Australians are more likely than people in any other developed nation to find themselves the victim of a serious crime, including those of a sexual nature, a major international report has found.

The Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), in its annual report comparing the group's members on a range of issues, found Australia had the highest rate of victimisation.

Between 1990 and the latest available figures, the number of victims of crime increased in Australia.

Australia had the highest proportion of victims of assaults, threats and crimes of a sexual nature of the OECD's member nations, the second highest proportion of burglaries, and high rates of robberies, car thefts and thefts from cars.

New Zealand had the second highest number of victims. The United States, which recorded a fall in victimisation rates, was mid-range."
***********************************************************

Want another Australian's perspective on this issue?:

http://bulletin.ninemsn.com.au/bull...7128006BCAC4?open&ui=dom&template=domBulletin



sterling180:

You're letting the blissninnies wind you up, Mate.

With all that ranting and flying spittle they dance around any point you make.

Take a deep breath and then calmly make your statements.

Gunowners Behaving Badly

Gunowners Behaving Badly- in the SYN BYN


----
There are only two gun owners in the aussieseek
SYN BYN at the moment
who have been silenced

Not by Tom. But by shooting themself in the foot.

nramember for spaming the main page with one page
posts and PC for bad wrtiting,( Yes thats the PC) Not even the Pope is Safe

Their memberships are in limbo but they can rejoin again under their own nic if one other member posts a note of support.

I fail to see what dog droppings has to do with a friendly chat about guns...especialy when dogs have contributed so much to say duck hunting...

---------------------------------------


Number of physicians in the US = 700,000
Accidental deaths caused by physicians/year =120,000.
Accidental deaths/physician = 0.171

Number of gun owners in US = 80,000,000
Number of accidental gun deaths/year = 1500
Accidental deaths/gun owner =.0000188

Conclusion - Doctors are approximately 9000 times more
dangerous than gun owners!

Well, Aussieseek, looks like you've got things under control.

Some folks get pretty 'wound-up' on certain topics.

"Tom" is given to high-handed moralizing and spouting half-truths....

Whatever floats your boat.

Have fun with your forum, Keith.

Are you a facist or a communist ?

Gosh....about AussieSeek cortez says (paranoid remark)

hes trying to get me banned all over the Internet. !!!!

Tell us all how thats done cortez !!!

Your little campaign to get me to Ban Pro Gun Posts was a fizzer; We are NOT a Gun Board, (although we just started ine ) we are a general board so All Opinions are welcome

It also helps the discourse.... slightly. I figured only commies were agains free speech.

The Gun argument wins because of sanity and logic. Not because of threats.

You dont see it that way I guess.

I know.youre not lateral,,, But Why dont you suggest
I should lobby for Banning computers !!!

Thats Almost as stupid as saying Banning Guns will stop crime

Everyone including GWB is a communist according to cortez and some single issue posters....

If you want to find out what you really are considered as .. try this

http://www.gravett.org/yobbo/quiz/quiz.htm


Australian Political Quiz

Welcome to the Australian political quiz - 10 questions that will help you determine your political philosophy and where you stand compared with Australian political parties

It provides the same result if youre American

Are you a facist or a communist ?

Find Out

Keith

-------------------------------------------

A Response !!!!


From PC


Who is organising a new Gun Poll

KEITH - Interesting.
I scored:
Your economic freedom index is 15, and your social freedom index is 14.
Which puts me alongside the LDP.
PC

.