RioShooter
Member
I have yet to see a timeline that shows how long the police waited to enter the VT building after the shooting started. I wonder what percent of the victims bled to death before receiving treatment.
VT - Delay in receiving medical treatment
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ShackleMeNot
Member
Self and buddy aid are important skills. How many of you know how to deal with gunshot wounds?
I heard on the radio last night that one of the students, a former Boy Scout, saved his life with self aid by making a tourniquet out of a light cord and getting another student to help him tie it around his leg. The Dr. they interviewed stated that his femoral artery was torn.
It doesn't matter how soon the police entered the building. Doctrine for an active shooter is to ignore the injured and hunt the shooter. The police would not have provided any aid until they were certain the shooter was contained and that he was alone. Priority is to stop the shooting.
Jeff
It doesn't matter how soon the police entered the building. Doctrine for an active shooter is to ignore the injured and hunt the shooter. The police would not have provided any aid until they were certain the shooter was contained and that he was alone. Priority is to stop the shooting.
Jeff
For EMS providers, this sort of situation is one of the most heart wrenching. Many paramedics are former military and/or fire fighters. Most are selfless and will risk more than the should to rescue someone. Most want to rush in, danger be damned, but are trained and ordered to wait until the scene is secure. While waiting to hear that the scene is secure so rescue operations can begin, seconds seem like minutes and minute seem like hours.
I beg to differ, Jeff. It does matter how quickly the police enter the building, because the sooner they isolate the threat, the sooner medical attention can be rendered. That was the OP's point.
I make this statement particularly because early reports and photos gave a clear impression that LEO were "taking up positions" around the building, meaning peering from behind trees, car doors, etc, while awaiting coordinating orders.
I do not know what cell phone info they had from inside the building, but I don't think they could have had reason to think there were more than two or three shooters.
Given their (LEO) numbers, and the audible shooting (almost continuous, on the cell-phone recording posted on U-Tube), I can't imagine waiting for a "plan". It was necessary to enter as quickly as the building could be breached. Officers often have to risk their lives in a pressing emergency.
It could be that they did attempt to enter, but were defeated by the chained doors.
A planned assault is fine when time is not absolutely critical.
I too, look forward to a time line.
C
I make this statement particularly because early reports and photos gave a clear impression that LEO were "taking up positions" around the building, meaning peering from behind trees, car doors, etc, while awaiting coordinating orders.
I do not know what cell phone info they had from inside the building, but I don't think they could have had reason to think there were more than two or three shooters.
Given their (LEO) numbers, and the audible shooting (almost continuous, on the cell-phone recording posted on U-Tube), I can't imagine waiting for a "plan". It was necessary to enter as quickly as the building could be breached. Officers often have to risk their lives in a pressing emergency.
It could be that they did attempt to enter, but were defeated by the chained doors.
A planned assault is fine when time is not absolutely critical.
I too, look forward to a time line.
C
That's the problem with trying to critique this. We don't have enough information to know what we're critiquing. The photos give a clear impression, but they don't tell the story. At this point we don't know if there already were officers inside when the pictures were taken. No one has seen their active shooter response plan. I can only speak for what we train for here. Here the first officers on the scene will form into an ad hoc hunter team, enter the structure and find the shooter(s) and stop him/them. I work in a very rural area where it may take 10 minutes or longer for a backup officer to arrive. In that case, if faced with an active shooter just about every officer I work with has stated they aren't waiting but will go in as soon as they arrive on the scene.
Like I said, if they are following protocol, they will ignore the injured until they have ended the threat.
The size of the building will determine how many hunter teams you want operating inside. In fact most plans call for the 4th officer on the scene to become the on scene response coordinator to keep other officers from entering until more information as to what's happening is available. That is to minimize fratricide.
Could be, we don't know. Few officers unless they are on SWAT carry much in the way of breaching equipment.
All anyone has is speculation at this point. There won't be a rush to judgment until we have some facts. Once the facts are available we can discuss the situation. Until then, we won't speculate or Monday morning quarterback. When we have the facts and we do discuss it, it will be a dispassionate discussion so that everyone can learn from it.
Until then, no speculation in S&T.
Jeff
Johnny_Yuma
Member
10-4 that, Jeff
In an active-shooter situation, we will walk right past the dead and wounded, after making certain none are armed, until we locate and neutralize the shooter. Rescue personnel will be permitted on-scene after we are reasonably certain all of the shooters are in custody or incapacitated. The big difference between the pre-Columbine era and today is that responding officers will generally NOT wait for SWAT but will seek to neutralize the shooters ASAP.
Generally, you are best off being self-reliant. 1) be armed and stop your attacker before he can kill you. 2) if that's not possible, know how to provide 1st aid for yourself. You may have to wait some time for paramedics. In the event of a mass-shooting, there will not be enough EMS to care for every victim at once. In my agency, we train to stop the bleeding on ourselves, make tourniquets out of our ties, belts, strips of cloth from our uniform or street clothes, minimize the effects of a sucking chest wound with a plastic evidence bag and tape, etc. Civillians can and should learn and practice these same techniques.
For those that would criticize the police in this matter, I saw lots of photos of cops running TOWARD the sound of gunfire.
Johnny
In an active-shooter situation, we will walk right past the dead and wounded, after making certain none are armed, until we locate and neutralize the shooter. Rescue personnel will be permitted on-scene after we are reasonably certain all of the shooters are in custody or incapacitated. The big difference between the pre-Columbine era and today is that responding officers will generally NOT wait for SWAT but will seek to neutralize the shooters ASAP.
Generally, you are best off being self-reliant. 1) be armed and stop your attacker before he can kill you. 2) if that's not possible, know how to provide 1st aid for yourself. You may have to wait some time for paramedics. In the event of a mass-shooting, there will not be enough EMS to care for every victim at once. In my agency, we train to stop the bleeding on ourselves, make tourniquets out of our ties, belts, strips of cloth from our uniform or street clothes, minimize the effects of a sucking chest wound with a plastic evidence bag and tape, etc. Civillians can and should learn and practice these same techniques.
For those that would criticize the police in this matter, I saw lots of photos of cops running TOWARD the sound of gunfire.
Johnny
Billy Sparks
Member
To actually expand on this a little as someone who has spent some time in EMS (27 years fire/rescue/ems) I have to wonder how much the grounding of the choppers had to do with patient outcomes.
Thin Black Line
Member
+1. There were many EMTs on 911 who got people out of the buildings and
continued going in again and again to get more until the very end. Many of
them died. We call them heroes.
If they would've waited for the structural engineers to show up on the scene,
the building would've collapsed before then and they would have saved no
one. I had a distant relative who died that day, but saved THREE people.
He left a wife and kids behind, but he did the math. More ppl were saved and
more spouses/parents went home that day.
Now some LEOs are going to have a knee-jerk response to what I'm about to
write:
You have a single BG shooting unarmed ppl. Wounded ppl are no doubt
slowly bleeding to death. You have X# of armed, armored police officers
waiting (for whatever based on "policy") to go in. Every second counts,
and every second is turning into another minute (and how long does it
take to pull a trigger and/or have a wound bleed out?). The LEO has an
excellent chance of going in and surviving without so much as a scratch.
Do the math, suck down some fear (whatever that is from possibly getting
hit yourself to some beaurocratic chewing out), and go in.
But how can they know it is a single badguy?
FWIW based on previous mass public shootings there is usually only one gunman. As far as I can recall Columbine was one of the few in which there were two. I guess this is so because it is very difficult to get more than one or two people to get so mad to loose their minds and go on a shooting spree.
As far as first aid goes, it appears to be a real challenging situation. You have many, many bodies dead or dieing and you have an unknown threat running around. I don't think that most police and EMS services have the training or coordination abilities to effectively and SAFELY deal with this type of situation, yet.
Man...30+ casualties....anyone have a doubt about 9mm's and .22's anymore?
FWIW based on previous mass public shootings there is usually only one gunman. As far as I can recall Columbine was one of the few in which there were two. I guess this is so because it is very difficult to get more than one or two people to get so mad to loose their minds and go on a shooting spree.
As far as first aid goes, it appears to be a real challenging situation. You have many, many bodies dead or dieing and you have an unknown threat running around. I don't think that most police and EMS services have the training or coordination abilities to effectively and SAFELY deal with this type of situation, yet.
Man...30+ casualties....anyone have a doubt about 9mm's and .22's anymore?
Thin Black Line
Member
I was a member of a mascal planning team while deployed. The leader was a
Reservist Provost Marshal who had a civilian LE role back in the US who did
local and state planning. Many of our military pieces were lifted from prior
civilian and military plans from back home and re-adapted at our location.
I don't know what kind of mascal plan VT or the local community had or how
involved their prior training (if any) had been. Link, anyone?
I know of both poor and excellent training and places that had written plans,
but no one who had ever actually trained on site. It's going to still be bad
no matter how much training you've had, but prior hands-on will help.
Bob F.
Member
nemoaz: +1
Additionally, been around enough and trained enough to say: No critique, I wasn't there.
Prayers for ALL involved.
Stay safe.
Bob
Additionally, been around enough and trained enough to say: No critique, I wasn't there.
Prayers for ALL involved.
Stay safe.
Bob
Thin Black Line
Member
I'm going to go back to posts #2 and #3 in this thread (Shackle and Jeff) and
for practical purposes just say to get some training, and carry a small kit with
a tourniquet, quikclot,etc in your vehicle/backpack/etc. This really doesn't
take up that much space nor weigh a lot.
for practical purposes just say to get some training, and carry a small kit with
a tourniquet, quikclot,etc in your vehicle/backpack/etc. This really doesn't
take up that much space nor weigh a lot.
My wife and I have been trained in gunshot wound care and have "blow out bags" with an "H" bandage, quick clot, NPA, tape, a tourniquet and a vacupacked curlex dressing. We were the class "pets" because my wife's a Nurse Practioner and I was willing to be a practice dummy for everything except the chest tap (that included a "combat IV" introduction) Good training.
That's it, this is turning into a political conversation and no one in it has any details about what response was made. Take it over to L&P.
If someone would care to discuss self aid and buddy aid that will be on topic.
Jeff
If someone would care to discuss self aid and buddy aid that will be on topic.
Jeff
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