Cup and Saucer

yes but Goon -

• knowing how to deal with something after the fact is one thing.
• Avoiding something just because maybe, someday, something bad might happen, is paranoia.

Are there more effective grips? Arguably, YES! I'm just saying that kBs should NOT be your only reason for not putting a supporting hand underneath.


As I said, I often shoot SMALL pistols. When you can only get two fingers onto a grip, you'll hold it however you can. Not to mention that on short grips, your shooting hands pinky is below the magwell anyways. So even if your supporting hand isn't underneath and vulnerable, your shooting hand still is.

I sometimes use the Tea & Saucer grip ...

In trying to figure out why, I just spent a few minutes (sans gun) holding my arms in the currently conventional position (left hand, for me, mostly wrapped around and supporting firmly the shooting hand) as well as in T&S position, and I find that T&S seems to allow an easier angle on the lower arm of the non-shooting hand when the gun is held close to the body, making it easier to support the weak-hand elbow right on the torso.

When I shoot as I more typically do, with right arm extended, the currently conventional position feels better and clearly provides more available hand strength on the gun,

Isn't it funny how this is a point of controversy? I remember being told (and just a few years ago) how the recurved front of some guns' trigger guards was the result of an already outmoded fashion of putting the index finger of the non-shooting hand in front of the trigger guard, a practice I was soberly warned was *definitely* not the correct way to do things. I suspect enough people thought it *was* a good way to do things for the gun makers to have cared enough to include that curve! Isn't it possible that different strokes for different folks is a good idea because the different strokes work better (for those different folks who choose to adopt them)?

timothy

I was told this by a RO. He told me that the magazine will "shoot out" and that he has seen one bury itself in the wood table below the shooter. I don't know how much of this is true though. Anyone?

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I've seen it happen. During an IDPA match, a guy was shooting gun show reloads. KA - Boom!!! Mag ejected onto concrete floor; damaged beyond repair. Thankfully his hand was not under the mag.

Full Sabrina is the only way to go.

So I'm reading a detective book and they:

1. Make a big deal of swiping the Glock safety (not an add on)
2. 45 ACP will knock you down with its large slow bullet

Quote:
I have been advised not to do it in case there is a malfunction with your handgun. In automatics, a KB will often be vented out through the grip and ejection port. If your hand is at the bottom of the grip... Ouch!
But a regular two handed grip offers a little more safety. I got this advice from a former handgun instructor.

I was told this by a RO. He told me that the magazine will "shoot out" and that he has seen one bury itself in the wood table below the shooter. I don't know how much of this is true though. Anyone?

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Had it happen with a Kel-Tec SUB200 carbine. My hand (which was not in the 'Tea Cup/Saucer position) was numb for an hour, never did find the floorplate of the mag, and that one definitely did not 'free fall' out of the mag well, I had to pound it out.

I don't know about y'all, but any bad gun handling or technique by actors who portray skilled, armed professionals absolutely ruins a movie or TV show for me. The credibility of the character is LOST. If only IDPA Champions or retired Special Ops guys could ACT! Some movies get pretty close..."Tears of the Sun" & "The Way of the Gun" are strong examples. And, believe it or not, the old Miami Vice TV show hired & paid attention to some serious, real-world, gun-slingin' advisors. Too bad the acting wasn't so hot.

GhostTracker, I sorta feel the same way. The worst I've felt about crappy gunhandling by an actor is when watching Jericho. The Hawkins character is supposedly a high-level operative, and when he was teaching his teenage daughter to shoot....she looked more at home with a gun than he did. That cupping grip always looks to me like they're having a hard time holding "that big heavy gun" up on target.

I'm a little more understanding with some TV stuff, though; the "jump into the doorway" is a little more entertaining to watch than a slow pieing of a room prior to entry, for ex.

I like a good car chase as well as any red-blooded Steve McQueen fan. But if the filming takes 3 or 4 cars....PLEASE make them identical enough that I can't tell when you switched them!! My wife recently accused me of being more interested in the continunity of a film than in the Story Line. I explained that once the first is blown I have a hard time enjoying the second.

I have been advised not to do it in case there is a malfunction with your handgun. In automatics, a KB will often be vented out through the grip and ejection port. If your hand is at the bottom of the grip... Ouch!
But a regular two handed grip offers a little more safety. I got this advice from a former handgun instructor.

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If we were that worried about it, we would only shoot with arc welding gloves, or perhaps catcher's mitts, on each hand.

As to the "KB" scenario and paranoia...if the grips were equal in terms of efficiency, then the unlikely KB factor would be enough to dissuade me from cup 'n saucer...cause why not? Since the cup 'n saucer is a very poor grip for all the reasons mentioned above...KB's need not even enter into it.

As far as a more effective grip feeling "weird" well, yeah, anything new feels weird until your nervous system becomes accustomed to having your body operate in that fashion. Nothing about shooting a gun is truly "natural", it is all learned activity anyway. Might as well take the time to learn some of the more effective methods as opposed to those "less" effective ones. Once you have truly learned it...it feels "natural" to you because those neural pthways are well established. Some call this "muscle memory", but that is a poor term and very undescriptive of what is occurring.

I taught my father in law the thumbs forward competition type grip (just like the Jarrett vid. link above) the other day as opposed to his very loose grip with the left hand a little lower. I noticed an immediate and obvious improvement in recoil control and follow up shot speed. He noticed it too and commented on it before I did. He mentioned the grip "felt" weird...well yeah, but the results were undeniable, so practice until it feels "normal."

This grip felt weird to me for a few weeks...now it feels normal and I naturally do it without conscious thought every time I pick up a pistol (or revolver).

The thumbs forward grip is the BEST. Unless the gun is so small the trigger finger bumps the end of the left thumb. In that case, lock the right thumb down with the left. That clears the left side of the trigger guard.

I have been told(heard from someone, unconfirmed) that people like policemen tend to use cup and saucer in high stress situations. Regardless of what they have been taught. If that is true then maybe we ought to look at this hold more closely, or our training techniques.

I'm still working on taking my modified weaver into a modern isosceles.

I used the cup and saucer for awhile.Took a handgun course,was taught
the "proper" way.My score improved about 100%!
I guess I picked it up from TV.I thought I knew what I was doing.

I like a good car chase as well as any red-blooded Steve McQueen fan. But if the filming takes 3 or 4 cars...

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Bugs me too. Just how many hubcaps came off that Charger, and did Mel Gibson flinch every time it happened? LOL

I know one older gentleman who always shoots "cup and saucer". In his case, he changed his grip about ten years ago after surgery left him with less range of motion in his left arm. He couldn't bring his left hand up and steady at shoulder height, but that 2-3inch lower grip at least gave him a two-handed grip. He shot just as well, if not a little better, in his opinion.

So how about some pictures of how others recommend holding the gun if theres a better way.

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Please note that in pic 2, the muzzle is in plane with the target and well controlled despite the brass making it obvious that the weapon was just fired. A decent thumbs forward two handed grip gives excellent recoil control allowing for extremely rapid follow up shots. Anyone shooting with a cup and saucer grip would still be pulling the weapon down out of recoil at this stage.

Take a look at the excellent recoil control offered in rapid defensive shooting with this grip;
http://youtube.com/watch?v=SfqWc68UwQg

I have been told(heard from someone, unconfirmed) that people like policemen tend to use cup and saucer in high stress situations.

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Actually, the tendency is to shoot one handed as well as crouch and face the threat directly.

Enough training and you can teach yourself to do anything under stress...most people (police included) don't get "enough" training/repetions.

I have been told(heard from someone, unconfirmed) that people like policemen tend to use cup and saucer in high stress situations. Regardless of what they have been taught.

No. People generally revert to training when they are under stress if they are well trained. If they are experienced enough to have found something else that works better they will do that.

Actually, the tendency is to shoot one handed as well as crouch and face the threat directly.


This is very true if the threat is close (under 15-20 yds). The closer the truer.

"...if they are well trained."

Which I believe many the argument states, the average policeman is not.

I was not talking about SWAT or the SAS or something. If shooting is qualifying on a target at 3, 7 and 15 on a B-21 once a year....I could see people forgetting training and going cup and saucer.

Ever shot at a rising bird without following the proper mechanics of shotgunning? That bird wasn't gonna shoot back!

I don't think that the unconfirmed bit of info I gave is implausible. If it was I wouldn't have bothered repeating it. I would like to see evidence one way or the other.

Carry a gun that fits and train.

First off, the cup and saucer is terrible as a steady grip. Better than one hand, but should be reserved for those such as the gentleman with shoulder surgery mentioned above.

I wonder if the cup and saucer came from the same cloth as the "sabrina". Maybe the left hand lower on the gun allowed more of the gun to be visible for dramatic effect in films. The sabrina came about as a way to get the actors face and the gun in the film shot.

If you can't hold your pistol with a normal grip, ditch it and get one that fits you. You'll shoot better because of the handgun fit and better form.

Train enough that your "Oh, $*&%" response is proper shooting form. Twice a year for the job or once every few months while swapping stories with the boys isn't enough. Develope a regimen for yourself and knock it out before you go to the plinking and B.S. sessions. Verfy empty and practice your drawstroke, including acquiring proper grip, at least twice a week. Even if it's only for five minutes each time.

for you lefties

If we were that worried about it, we would only shoot with arc welding gloves, or perhaps catcher's mitts, on each hand.

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Welding gloves aren't necessary, but a lot of IPSC shooters put aluminum grips on their pistols to protect their hands in the occurance of a KB.

I had a 9mm blow up on me once, it stung my hands like a SOB, but it would have been a lot worse if I had any of my appendages under the magazine.

Can someone please explain what a "Sabrina" is?

My current opinion of Sabrina is that the original B&W version with Bogart and Hepburn is a great movie, but the remake with Harrison Ford is lousy, even if he was well cast. Julia Ormond is just not up to the standard set by Hepburn.

But that is not a way to hold a gun!

timothy

Sabrina refers to the character in Charlie's Angels, but the technique is an extreme two-handed high ready position that films well, with the gun near the actor's face. As for teacup-and-saucer, it was not uncommon among police in the early 1980's, probably even still being taught in some places at that time. I was not taught this way in the police academy in '83-'84. My wife tends to use cup&saucer, and she came of age in the late 1970's.

The following pictures will show you why the cup & saucer is a very poor grip to use. Pay attention to the shooter on the left.

I was taught the "cup 'n saucer" grip during my time in the Army National Guard in the 80's. No chance to "get a different pistol if that doesn't fit." M1911A1 or ... well... M1911A1.

I have since learned there are other grips...

The one reason I like the grip is it lets you rest if you need to "hold down" for an extended period. The elbow of the offhand (in my case the left elbow) can rest against your body with the pistol in line with the target, but not elevated. Then, if/ when you need to be on target, you simply raise the pistol a few inches. MUCH easier than holding both arms up to stay on taget, or dropping the pistol all the way, losing all sight reference.