CCW holders and accidental shootings...

Status
Not open for further replies.

Conqueror

Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2007
Messages
966
Location
RTP, NC
I haven't seen anyone tackling this question yet, so I'd like to hear everyone's opinions/facts on the matter.

I'm a campus leader for Students for Concealed Carry on Campus. One of the Brady Bunch's main protestations to our position is as follows:

Even trained police officers, on average, hit their intended targets less than 20% of the time.

Their insinuation is that CCW holders will shoot innocent bystanders rather than the bad guys.

Does anyone have any statistics on this accusation? I mean for ALL CCW holders, not just students or cops. In my whole life I've never heard of a licensed CCW holder shooting an innocent bystander. I'd like some stats to counter this line of anti-CCW argument.

Thanks!
 
There probably ISN'T any data. Any time anyone actually compiles data and looks at facts, it tends to make Brady look pretty stupid.

I'd challenge Brady to show how many people have been shot by those LEO misses. I can't remember a single news item in my entire life where an innocent party was shot by an LEO miss. I bet you're in single digits per DECADE. But I don't have the data.
 
there was a shootout at a japanese diner last week where the leo was shooting at an armed suspect and at least 3 people behind the target were hit, now the guy was armed and shooting people with a shotgun, so he cant really be blamed, and none of the 3 died, in fact every one of them praised the leo

i would venture that most CCW holders could out shoot the average LEO... most LEOs only fire their service weapons when its time to qualify with them...
 
There is some data, but it's pretty skimpy:

Can Citizens Use Guns Competently?
Ordinary people, even if they have passed a firearms safety class, cannot be trusted to use guns competently, it is sometimes claimed. The guns will be taken away by criminals, or the gun-owners will shoot an innocent bystander by mistake, it is sometimes predicted. Wherever the concealed carry issue is raised in the future, it can be predicted with confidence that these objections will be raised by reform opponents, including many law enforcement professionals who claim expertise on the issue.

The existing body of research provides no support for these fears. The best evidence we have about what happens when people have carry permits is the experience of the 1/3 of American states that issue such permits routinely. From these states, the most detailed data are those compiled by the Dade County (Miami) police. As discussed above, the police kept track of every known incident involving the county's more than 21,000 handgun carry permitees over a six-year period. In that six-year period, there was one known incident of a crime victim having his gun taken away by the criminal. There were no known incidents of a crime victim injuring an innocent person by mistake. In some cases the handgun permit holder was successful in preventing a crime, and in some cases not, but in no case was any innocent person injured as a result of mistake by a permit-holder.

Another study examined newspaper reports of gun incidents in Missouri, involving police or civilians. In this study, civilians were successful in wounding, driving off, capturing criminals 83% of the time, compared with a 68% success rate for the police. Civilians intervening in crime were slightly less likely to be wounded than were police. Only 2% of shootings by civilians, but 11% of shootings by police, involved an innocent person mistakenly thought to be a criminal. [145]

The Missouri research does not prove that civilians are more competent than police in armed confrontations. Civilians can often choose whether or not to intervene in a crime in progress, whereas police officers are required to intervene. Being forced to intervene in all cases, police officers would naturally be expected to have a lower success rate, and to make more mistakes. Attorney Jeffrey Snyder elaborates:

Rape, robbery, and attempted murder are not typically actions rife with ambiguity or subtlety, requiring special powers of observation and great book-learning to discern. When a man pulls a knife on a woman and says, "You're coming with me," her judgment that a crime is being committed is not likely to be in error. There is little chance that she is going to shoot the wrong person. It is the police, because they are rarely at the scene of the crime when it occurs, who are more likely to find themselves in circumstances where guilt and innocence are not so clear-cut, and in which the probability for mistakes is higher. [146]

In addition, the Missouri study was not restricted to "carry" situations, but also included self-defense in the home. Persons using a gun to defend their own home, who know its layout much better than does an intruder, might be expected to have a higher success rate than would persons using a gun in a less familiar public setting.

The most detailed information about civilian defensive gun use has been compiled by Professor Gary Kleck (a liberal Democrat, and member of the ACLU and Common Cause) in his book Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America. In 1992 the American Society of Criminology awarded the book the Hindelang Prize, as the most significant contribution to criminology in the previous three years. In Point Blank, Kleck studied computer tapes from the U.S. Department of Justice's National Crime Survey, for the years 1979-85. Analyzing the data from over 180,000 crime incidents in the National Crime Survey, as well from other studies, Kleck found the following:

- In no more than 1% of defensive gun uses was the gun taken away by a criminal.
- The odds of a defensive gun user accidentally killing an innocent person are less than 1 in 26,000.
- For robbery and assault victims, the lowest injury rates (17.4% for robberies, and 12.1% for assaults) were among victims who resisted with a gun.
- The next lowest injury rates were among persons who did not resist. Other forms of resistance (such as shouting for help, or using a knife), had higher injury rates than either passive compliance or resistance with a gun. [147]
From here:
http://www.claytoncramer.com/shall-issue.html#c34
 
i would venture that most CCW holders could out shoot the average LEO...
I agree. I have been to the range and watched LEO shoot gropus that resemble shotgun patterns rather than groups, (Not all LEO are bad shots). I tend to practice shooting in simulated SD firings bringing up the gun from a rest for quick shots of one, two & three taps that generally cover the plam of my hand at 15-25 yards. Those would be 4"-5" groups. With a slow fire and prone shooting the groups are genreally half the size or less < 2"-2.5". I figure if I 'm aiming for center mass and I put my hand over my chest the BG is hit well enough to completely disable him.Even with a flyer or two.

Then again I'm at the range 1-2 times a week and shoot anywhere between 100-200 rounds with the gun I'm practicing with.
 
While having to obtain a license to carry concealed sticks in the craw of most here and would seem an infringement on one's Second Amendment rights, the facts seem to indicate that the overwhelming majority of those who bother to go through the process to obtain the permits/licenses do tend to be the most responsible people owning/carrying guns and thus the accident rate and criminal offense rate (for firearms-related offenses) is low. So one could make the case that the licensing requirement may have the benefit of making safer gun owners, as firearms accidents and firearms crimes are most common among those who do not hold licenses ...

i would venture that most CCW holders could out shoot the average LEO... most LEOs only fire their service weapons when its time to qualify with them...
Nah, I'm not sure that's supportable; most of the "CCW holders" probably don't shoot as often as you think. Many people with licenses don't even carry regularly nor do they practice with their personal handguns. Shocking, I know, but there's been some evidence of this around for a while now.

Some of you here apparently think that most CCW (CHL, CPL) holders shoot as much as you all do. Were this the case, I submit that, at least in my state, range time at our local gun clubs and commercial ranges would be pretty doggone hard to get what with all the CPL holders who'd all crowding in getting in their target practice ...

So, do most of you here face formal qualification tests where you shoot for score under time limits? 'Cause what I see at my local ranges (and I spend beaucoup hours weekly at my local ranges) doesn't indicate that ... Nor do I see all the folks I know with CPLs going to shooting schools, learning to shoot on the move, practicing scenarios, shooting after exercise to get the heart rate up and adrenalin flowing (such as one might expect in a real-life shooting situation).

Frankly, to me, it's a myth that the average citizen CPL holder can outshoot the average cop, for the average citizen CPL holder does not necessarily shoot regularly or have the sort of training the average cop gets.

Now, can the average gun enthusiast citizen who shoots regularly outshoot the average non-gun enthusiast cop who only shoots his/her quarterly, semi-annual or annual quals? Probably so.
 
I can give you the statistics for Florida.

Number of Licenses Issued (since 10/01/87): 1,290,110

Number of Active Licenses: 463,760

Crimes by CCW holder w/ firearm used (since 10/01/87): 164 or 0.012%

Innocent bystanders shot: 0
 
i would speculate that a majority of people that choose to own a gun for home defense actually take it to the range at least a couple of times a year... some go weekly, but id speculate that most would be in the every 9-12 month range...

now, the person that typically takes the extra step to get a CCW is usually a few steps above your average home defense owner... they are usually getting the CCW because they either intend to carry concealed, or they intend to purchase multiple firearms over the course of time they have the permit and they dont want to deal with annoying background checks/purchase permits every time they make a purchase...

in either case, they are much more likely to practice with their firearm... or at the very least they will be intimately familiar with multiple types of firearms...

as for crowded ranges... perhaps you dont go as often as youd like, but the last time i was at the outdoor range it was a 45 minute wait to get a bench, the last time i was at an indoor range it was over 30 minutes... frankly where im at, its bad enough that im looking at actually opening my own range... cus damn business is good for em...
 
In all honesty I don't think your average police officer is a crack shot. Most don't practice regularly just as many CCL holders don't.

I've had many cop friends over the years and most were not gun enthusiast, they carried because the had to not because they really wanted to. Many police officers don't become police officers just to be able to carry a gun and many don't seek any further training after they graduate from the academy nor do they practice on a regular basis.

The fact is a defensive shooting whether you're law enforcement or not is a high stress situation and the reason innocent bystanders get shot is because the shooter panics and forgets the fundamentals of proper trigger control, grip and sight alignment.

Many people who get there carry permits think that just carrying a gun and shooting it a few times is all the training and practice they need. The fact is unless you practice regularly and seek advanced firearm training you are only hurting yourself. If you fire in a defensive shooting and miss hitting an innocent bystander you will not only face persecution by the State but also the victims family. The consequences are severe and in my opinion ample reason to shoot as much as possible and seek advanced training.

The way I see it if you're going to carry a gun for protection whether you're a cop or civilian you need to train, if you can't get training then practice and train yourself. Some people say that the high price of ammo is the reason they don't shoot as much as the should. Well the fact is if you are involved in a self defense shooting at hit an innocent bystander you're going to wish you spent the money on range time, lessons and the high cost of ammo. I guarantee the legal and emotional costs will be much higher.

Of course many CCL holders are competent shooters and many are probably more trained and better shots than many cops. Of course you also have to remember that many CCL holders are not members of THR and base their interpretations of shootouts based on what they see in the movies. They pull they trigger and the bullet magically goes where they want it, they don't have to do anything the gun will do all the work for them:rolleyes:

Again these are all my opinions take them or leave them, whether you agree or not won't change my mind;)
 
Last edited:
I was told back when I got my CCL that if you shoot in self defense and hit an innocent bystander you've just committed murder.

Not accurate. If you are using justifiable deadly force and hit a bystander, the BG (if he lives) is charged with the murder. He is responsible for all deaths resulting from his crime. The same applies to LEOs that hit bystanders during legal shootings. If your used of deadly force is ruled justified, you cannot be sued by the family (at least under Florida law).
 
Actually in Arizona its considered manslaughter not murder....I was pretty close:neener:
Manslaughter (with or without firearm), A.R.S. § 13-1103

a. Recklessly causing the death of another person;

[Example: You enter a convenience store and see an armed man, holding a gun to the clerk's head. You correctly surmise that a robbery is in progress. You pull your gun and shoot ten times at the robber, but you miss him. Unfortunately, one or more of your shots kills another customer in the store.]

http://www30.brinkster.com/daver120/Arizona_laws.htm

I would also assume that whether you get prosecuted by the State or not the victims family will want to see you prosecuted and even if they don't win it could be an expensive legal battle for all involved.
 
First, that is someone's opinion of the law. Second, I think it is the firing 10 rounds that got you the "reckless" causing the death of the other person, not the fact you fired and missed. If you are not acting in a reckless manner, you haven't committed a crime.

Whoever wrote it has been watching too much television. He also states it is manslaughter if someone is holding a gun to your child and forces you to shoot another person. I'm not a lawyer, however, I'm not too sure of that one either as you are acting under duress. Be like charging a store clerk with theft because he gave away the money in the register to some guy that was pointing a gun at him.
 
Attempting to reason with leftist extremists is like trying to teach cats to whistle: you may briefly amuse the creatures, but they're not going to learn to whistle.

You misinterpret my intention. I'm not under the illusion that I'm going to sway Sarah Brady to our side with this data. The point is that there are a LOT of people out there who are moderately anti-gun, but not so extreme that they won't listen to our side of the argument. This is especially pertinent for SCCC, since a LOT of students hear that "LEOs shoot 20%" stat and immediately think that CCW holders on campus will kill innocent people 80% of the time.

I appreciate everyone who's posting in this thread, but I'm looking more for hard facts and numbers than I am for opinions like "I bet most CCWs outshoot LEOs." I'm sure the next time SCCC runs an on-campus protest there will be people there who have heard these "facts" from the Brady Bunch. I want to be able to calmly and rationally say something like "Florida has issued over a million CCW permits over the last 20 years and not once has an innocent bystander been killed during a defensive shooting."
 
now, the person that typically takes the extra step to get a CCW is usually a few steps above your average home defense owner... they are usually getting the CCW because they either intend to carry concealed, or they intend to purchase multiple firearms over the course of time they have the permit and they dont want to deal with annoying background checks/purchase permits every time they make a purchase...

in either case, they are much more likely to practice with their firearm... or at the very least they will be intimately familiar with multiple types of firearms...

That statement is contrary to my experience as an instructor. If anything I have to be even more alert and on edge when conducting CCW re-qualifications at the range than when I'm doing initial qualifcations. Why? Because they "already know it" and they're much less safe than the folks who have sat through a class and had range safety procedures reviewed and emphasized over a 4 hour period(in Arkansas they don't have to sit through the classroom portion for a renewal, they just have to do the range portion).

It's gotten to the point that I go through the whole safety lecture, malfunction drill and marksmanship training portion at the range for "renewal" shooters every time now. This includes how to show clear and safe, indexing the trigger finger, and not muzzle sweeping others. There are occasionally folks who I feel comfortable with on the range: invariably they're private security folks or LEO's from one agency or another, very few others.

Nah, I don't buy the argument that most CCW holders can outshoot most LEO's. The great majority of them I've seen spend the only range time they get every four years with me during their "re-qualification".

The real reason they tend not to shoot bystanders is because they're right there when the crime goes down and they know who the bad guy is. For that, I'm grateful for every BG who, when he picks the wrong victim, an armed citizen was around.
 
Hmm, sacp81170a, I think you pretty much confirmed and elaborated a bit on some of the points I was attempting to make in my post ... thanks!
 
The real reason they tend not to shoot bystanders is because they're right there when the crime goes down and they know who the bad guy is. For that, I'm grateful for every BG who, when he picks the wrong victim, an armed citizen was around.

Bingo we have a winner. When a CCW holder pulls out his/her gun and starts shooting they almost always do it with the criminal moving toward them and at very close range. Under these circumstances it is easy to know who the BG is and it also makes it much less likely that those shots will miss their intended target. This is a completely different situation from what the police typically have when they are involved in a shooting.

Bystanders being shot by a CCW holder are very rare and as a result it is almost imposible to find any statisics on this subject. If it were a real issue you can bet that some left wing news paper would have published some statisics. But none have.
 
Standing Wolf said...

Attempting to reason with leftist extremists is like trying to teach cats to whistle: you may briefly amuse the creatures, but they're not going to learn to whistle.

I agree. Arguing ( or attempting to educate) a commited anti 2A person is like wrestling with a pig. You can't win you will only end up covered in mud....
and the pig enjoys it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top