External vs Internal Extractors

Status
Not open for further replies.
C

Crow1108

Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2007
Messages
350
Location
South Carolina
Doing a little more research on 1911s, I notice many newer models have external extractors. What is the difference between the two in terms of reliability?
 
The 1911 was originally designed with an internal extractor - I'd say that those with the external extractor have displayed more problems percentage-wise.

That said, I'm sure it won't take long for one o' them outraged anal types to show up and tell us all how theirs has never had a problem. Not doubting those guys at all - but I would never buy a 1911 with an external extractor for myself. YMMV and all that... ;)
 
But S&W will tell you that they cannot furnish a mere paying customer with a spare because he won't have the gauges and torque bar to properly fit it.

Note that S&W uses two different types, regular and PC, and Kimber quit external extractors entirely in a flood of complaints.
 
I am considering a S&W SW1911PD. Apparently all S&W 1911's use external extractors. I was concerned about this as I have heard about the Kimber debacle. I have researched the SW1911's quite a bit and there as been much praise for these guns and no mention of extractor issues that I could find. What does S&W know or do that Kimber didn't I don't know but it seems to work. S&W's customer service and warranty is excellent so I am not worrying about if I should ever encounter an issue or needing to fit a replacement myself. I am new to 1911's and this is just my observation from what I have learned.
 
What does S&W know or do that Kimber didn't I don't know but it seems to work.
Click to expand...

S&W had to quickly make a name for itself in the crowded field of 1911 manufacturers while Kimber had the golden reputation of their Series I guns to fall back on. Add that to the fact that S&W has been making external extractors work for decades.
 
The external extractor designs are typically too high and not tall enough so they may not control the case after the barrel links down. They also tend to interfere with feeding because they require more tension than an internal because the pivot point is usually farther away from the center of the slide. Without the extra tension the extractor would slip off whereas an internal does not have the tendency to slip due to it's location in the slide and anchoring at the firing pin stop.

Here is what George Smith has to say:
http://forums.1911forum.com/showpost.php?p=1690634&postcount=15
Opinion.

Me thinks the issue is mechanical force.
typically the extractor designs for external are starting with a handicap.
the pivot point is not directly behind the rim of the case.

HK rifles have a Killer extractor design, the harder you pull the more the extractor pulls in and digs into the case. (provided the material used is good and it is)

On the typical external extractor there are several issues.
As mentioned by our estute members the extractor location is too high. the gun fires and barrel pulls down out of battery, this drop may be .050 or more on many guns. The extractor location should be such that at the unlock point (the place the barrel positions the case on the bolt face) we do not want to be @ the radius on the bottom of the extractor. The extractor should be fairly thick from top to bottom, needs a bottom corner radius so it feeds reliably. And should NOT have an inside square corner that is a stress riser. also, again opinion, the extractor hook should grab inbound on the rim not at the outside edge. The hook should not be Too Long. The greater the depth of the hook the greater leverage the case has to snap the hook off.

Just in Raw material the hook being .200 high instead of .125 from top to bottom makes the amount of material that would need to fail to seporate the hook greater by over 50%

Next The pull point.
a firing pin stop is typically .480 ish wide.
the 45 case is roughly the same size.
this means even with minimal tension the hook pulls strait from it's anchor.

On many of the external ext. the fulcrum point is well outside the rim of the case. the only thing holding the hook on the rim is the spring and the leverage ratio of the spring. With dust or other problems increasing the force to extract the case the spring can be overcome by the resistance and skip off. The internal pulling strait from behind is at an advantage.

geo

www.egw-guns.com
Click to expand...

You won't catch me getting hosed with an external extractor gun again.
 
I have owned 3 1911's, the first was a SW1911 with about 700 rounds through it, one jam. The others were Springfield 1911's, one loaded and another mil spec both had problems with them. I never really could get them to run to my satisfaction. I got rid of the sw1911 because I was convinced that the internal design was better and maybe it is...but I should have never sold that gun. Internal extractors are fine if they are of the exact right material, within it's specs and fitted by someone who knows the gun pretty well. SW1911's are very good with extractors that just seem to work (in my admittedly limited experience with them). With that said, i no longer own a 1911, i own a SIG p226 and p220, haven't had a problem yet.
 
I have had a S&W 1911PD for about a year now. I have put about 1k down the pipe without so much as a hickup. I can't speak for other 1911's with the external extractor but the Smith seems to been done right.
 
I have a DW Patriot from when they first came out. It now has over 10k rounds through it. In the first 1000 rounds, I broke the external extractor. I got a replacement, made sure it was fitted right (enough clearance on top and bottom), and it's been running like a champ since.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top