New VA legislation, lift ban on CC in restaurants?

Here's the info. Senator's name is "Hanger."

Full text.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?081+ful+SB476

Off-duty cops can drink and carry, however. I guess guns and alcohol are somehow able to mix well in their authority-fortified frames.

Don't get me wrong. I see nothing wrong with someone who knows his limits having a couple of beers at a restaurant. My contention is the fact that this politician (or anyone) feels that badged civilians are somehow invulnerable to becoming drunk and belligerent, but that badgeless civilians are not.

-Sans Authoritas

Since you're in VA, you need to go to VCDL's site and at least sign up for their free e-mails. They'll keep you well informed, often clearing up the confusion of news reports.
'Course, if you're not a member...!
I'd have to say these folks are one of (if not the best) activist groups I've seen.
http://www.vcdl.org/

Effective they are. I haven't joined the VCDL because of the infantile way they tried to right the wrong of CCW holders having their names and addresses published by perpetrating another wrong, by publishing all the info they could about whatever individuals had anything to do with supporting or perpetrating the first wrong. I talked to one of the higher ups, and he said they wouldn't stop, because "they started it." It's one thing to defend oneself from injustice with just means. It is totally another to "defend oneself" by putting other people at risk, including the wives and children of those who perpetrated the initial evil. VCDL couldn't see that what they were doing was also evil. I will not lend support nor associate myself with people who cannot think more clearly than that on such important issues.

-Sans Authoritas

I could live with the compromise put forth by the bill. Maybe it'd be nice if it were to allow unloaded carry if you've been drinking (magazine in separate pocket would be okay), but we've let our rights slip so far that we need to be smart about getting them back. Easing those who've been misinformed over the years into an understanding of guns is much less likely to spark a backlash than asserting and demanding our rights (or else!).

We're not in danger of anything the weapons we have right now can't clear up. Maybe we will be in the future, or maybe we just want to have fun toys, but just as it's often best to start a new shooter with a .22 instead of a .45, it might be wiser to take things one step at a time.

Sans,
As you point out, VCDL just gave some arrogant "journalists" a taste of what it feels like to be "outed." No harm was intended or incurred. On the other hand, those of us who were in the online database the paper published were, and are, open to exploitation by thieves, activists, and who knows who else. Serves 'em right, I'd say.

VCDL is arguably the most effective RKBA activist group in the country.

TC

Hangar is my rep and this bill is better than what we have, but why not introduce a bill that says it is legal to drive to a bar as long as you are not drinking. If less than .08 is safe to drive, why not to carry? This bill is just itching to establish new rules that don't exist now. Imagine being a felon for blowing .02 while carrying. It could happen a little further down this slippery slope.

open carry is still a lawful option in VA if you're in a place that serves alcohol and you are not drinking.

Off-duty cops can drink and carry, however. I guess guns and alcohol are somehow able to mix well in their authority-fortified frames.

Don't get me wrong. I see nothing wrong with someone who knows his limits having a couple of beers at a restaurant. My contention is the fact that this politician (or anyone) feels that badged civilians are somehow invulnerable to becoming drunk and belligerent, but that badgeless civilians are not.

Click to expand...

That is not the way I read it.

No person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia may consume an alcoholic beverage while on the premises; however, nothing herein regarding the consumption of alcohol shall apply to a federal, state, or local law-enforcement officer while actually engaged in the performance of his official duties.

Click to expand...

Only officers engaged in the performance of their official duties may drink while carrying concealed. I suspect that was included to protect undercover officers who may be drinking as part of their cover. I don't think that means a patrol cop can stop off for a beer while on duty.

It is already a Class 1 misdemeanor to carry while under the influence of alcohol - this does not change that.

open carry is still a lawful option in VA if you're in a place that serves alcohol and you are not drinking.

Click to expand...

Yep, only thing is that a lot of people don't like to OC.

The bill I'm really looking forward to is the one that lifts the prohibition on having a loaded gun in a locking (though VCDL is trying to get the "locked" part removed which I hope they can do) container or glove box without a CHP.

VCDL is arguably the most effective RKBA activist group in the country.

Click to expand...

Indeed, i'm proud to be a card-carrying member as well as regular financial contributor.

A bill like this has been put in the hopper ever since the ban on CCW in restaurants went into effect, with shall -issue CCW in the 1990s, and has never made it. The Virginia restaurant lobby has been effective in opposing it. So root for it, but I wouldn't get my hopes up.

You don't have to be a member of VCDL to get their alerts, which are good way of keeping tabs on legislation. I got the alerts long before I was a member (I had differences with them over the fingerprint issue)

To be clear about Virginia law and what we're trying to do.

Virginia was a "May issue" state. When it became a "Shall Issue" state the anti's jumped up and immediately banned CCW in any establishment that serves alcohol. However they didn't know about or understand state preemption which kept it completely legal to carry openly.

As a result we have a situation where any Va citizen with a CCW permit, who is carrying concealed, has to either disarm or switch to open carry upon entering an establishment that serves alcohol.

The act of switching from CCW to OC can be remarkably disruptive and is very unsettling to the more high-strung folks out in the real world. It also kinda ruins the entire concept of CONCEALED carry (i.e. that we'd like to just stay low key and not announce that we carry). For these reasons we're fighting to get this disruptive law removed.

In fact I had to explain this to several Delegates at "lobby day" as they had NO understanding about this bill. To their credit, not all agreed but they were willing to listen and at least understood what I was saying.

Since folks have been carrying openly since VA became a "Shall Issue" state in 1992 and we've had no notable change in any incidents than we had before the laws, it looks like we have a strong chance to get this stupid law off the books since there is no proof that it does anything beneficial and does, in fact, cause some disruption.

This topic came up on Sunday, while I was introducing three new people to the Gun Thing. My coworker noticed I was OCing as she sat down beside me in the restaurant booth. This allowed me to explain the whole stupidity of the VA Restaurant Association position.

I first became acquainted with VCDL on the day I applied for my CHP. It was the day that shall-issue took effect, and I was standing in line at a Fairfax Co PD station. VCDL members were walking up and down the line, explaining which onerous extra items, imposed by Fairfax Co, were not legally required. I didn't realize at the time who they were, but joined a short while later. I've been a member ever since.

I remember full shall issue was passed in 1996 or so, I applied immediately. I remember Governor Allen (I miss him!) trying to strip out the ban on CCW in restaurant in the veto session and getting overidden. Then NVCDL, now VCDL, has been working against it over since, at times when the legislature was more favorable to gun issues han now, so it is long shot. Keep writing and e-mailing the leg, maybe it will come through.

Effective they are. I haven't joined the VCDL because of the infantile way they tried to right the wrong of CCW holders having their names and addresses published by perpetrating another wrong, by publishing all the info they could about whatever individuals had anything to do with supporting or perpetrating the first wrong. I talked to one of the higher ups, and he said they wouldn't stop, because "they started it." It's one thing to defend oneself from injustice with just means. It is totally another to "defend oneself" by putting other people at risk, including the wives and children of those who perpetrated the initial evil. VCDL couldn't see that what they were doing was also evil. I will not lend support nor associate myself with people who cannot think more clearly than that on such important issues.

-Sans Authoritas

Click to expand...

That has got to be the most pathetic reason I ever heard not to be involved. Because they fought fire with fire, you refuse to associate yourself.

Sans Authoritas wrote:

Effective they are. I haven't joined the VCDL because of the infantile way they tried to right the wrong of CCW holders having their names and addresses published by perpetrating another wrong, by publishing all the info they could about whatever individuals had anything to do with supporting or perpetrating the first wrong. I talked to one of the higher ups, and he said they wouldn't stop, because "they started it." It's one thing to defend oneself from injustice with just means. It is totally another to "defend oneself" by putting other people at risk, including the wives and children of those who perpetrated the initial evil. VCDL couldn't see that what they were doing was also evil. I will not lend support nor associate myself with people who cannot think more clearly than that on such important issues. -Sans Authoritas

Click to expand...

Somekid wrote:

That has got to be the most pathetic reason I ever heard not to be involved. Because they fought fire with fire, you refuse to associate yourself.

Click to expand...

Fighting fire with fire? More like napalming innocents in retaliation for having had one's own group of innocents napalmed.

People received death threats because of what the VCDL did. Endangering the wives and children of the clowns who published the CCW list is NOT justified! Just like it wasn't justified when they did it.

I cannot fathom such a moral disconnect.

-Sans Authoritas

vt357 wrote:

that's not the way I read it:
No person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia may consume an alcoholic beverage while on the premises; however, nothing herein regarding the consumption of alcohol shall apply to a federal, state, or local law-enforcement officer while actually engaged in the performance of his official duties.

Click to expand...

Only officers engaged in the performance of their official duties may drink while carrying concealed. I suspect that was included to protect undercover officers who may be drinking as part of their cover. I don't think that means a patrol cop can stop off for a beer while on duty.

It is already a Class 1 misdemeanor to carry while under the influence of alcohol - this does not change that.

Click to expand...

Phenomenal catch, vt357. I must've been pre-occupied with the part in the lines, and failed to catch that this Hanger fellow is actually recognizing that badged civilians are more like you and I, in the scope of human nature.

Cheers,

-Sans Authoritas

People received death threats because of what the VCDL did.

Click to expand...

Any citations on this?
There were multiple cases of parolees showing up at peoples front doors, or of people being revealed to those whom they had protective orders against once the CHP list was printed.

"People received death threats because of what the VCDL did."

Facts please. Or even a link.

Or did you mean VCDL members received death threats? Your post isn't clear and is sorely lacking specifics.

John
NRA Patron Member
Member www.vcdl.org

I retract the "death threats were made" statement. I made it without researching the facts, and I was unable to find any links to support it.

The author of the article, whose name I will not mention, claimed he received "threats." What that means, who knows. Heaven knows I don't trust the man very much. But I have very little reason to doubt him, either, and that comes from my experience with the hotheaded gun owners we all have seen, not from his trustworthiness.

Nonetheless: publishing the addresses, phone numbers and house photographs of people who spoke out in favor of the CCW list, or who published it, is a tactic intended to cause fear. It is something that would rightfully cause revulsion if it were seen on a private person's website. Fear. Why else would anyone (like the radio host after his totally innocent wife felt at risk, alarmed that their home information was being published) give in, unless there was fear? There is no way that, if any of those people had families, VCDL was not putting them at risk: probably not by their own members, who are mostly upstanding citizens: but non-VCDL members also frequent their site. Some of them doubtless have very little restraint when it comes to shooting their mouth off in anger. I've met such people before.

While what the VCDL did was admittedly not nearly as dangerous as what the Roanoke Times did, it was nonetheless evil.

-Sans Authoritas

Okay, this isn't a thread on the maturity level of the members of the VCDL. Can we please get back to the point (about restaurant carry).

Restaurant carry. It's a great idea and I need it because I do a lot of walking and shopping downtown and I'd like to be able to drop into a restaurant and eat.

I'll be the most surprised person in the world if it ever passes.

Sans Authoritas - Nice retraction. Of course, now your credibility is shot and you'll need to provide citations if you post the time of day or the weather.

John
NRA Member
VCDL Member

JohnBT said:

Restaurant carry. It's a great idea and I need it because I do a lot of walking and shopping downtown and I'd like to be able to drop into a restaurant and eat.

I'll be the most surprised person in the world if it ever passes.

Sans Authoritas - Nice retraction. Of course, now your credibility is shot and you'll need to provide citations if you post the time of day or the weather.

Click to expand...

John, thank you. Making a retraction for blurting out a little emotional hyperbole that one incorrectly assumed was factually true is the honorable thing to do. I don't know why you didn't receive it honorably. You were halfway there. Then you wrote the second sentence. It's pretty insulting and narrow to say that such a statement, made with no intent to deceive, destroys my credibility.

But I imagine many of you who agree with John will also be voting for John McCain, whose stances on a few subjects have substantially contradicted themselves throughout the years. Most notably on "nation building" in Bosnia and Haiti compared to Iraq, for example. (I do have citations for that.) How someone could vote for any politician who has flip-flopped on huge issues, after saying, "your credibility is shot because you got a little too hyperbolic," is unbelievable. If you're voting for Ron Paul, there's no issue, of course.

-Sans Authoritas