Who wants to learn how to shoot at long range?

Day 5 - Final shot on objective, extract, vehicle shooting, bonus shoot, debrief

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I'd hate to be the one that has to drive the vehicle...

My money is on McGunner, not some salesman.

Stick to selling the training and not bashing someone who thinks he can train himself. Most of us are self taught.

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+1

Again, I'm astonished. Many thanks to you armchair, self taught snipers pointing out that we're salesman out to take a hard working rifleman's buck.

To those of you calling us "salesman," did you think to check out our instructor's bios on our site or did you quickly run your mouth first? I guess the whole combat veteran Marine Scout Sniper thing is just another sales tactic? We did post our bios in public for everyone to see ya know....

The challenge to MCGunner was him against one of our graduates not one of us "salesmen." Walkabout, are you advising me to let MCgunner run his mouth about being able to teach himself everything we teach rather than calling him out? He ran his mouth, I'm offering him a chance to ante up. I didn't bash self taught rifleman; I merely pointed out he is most likely not going to teach himself what combat veteran Marine Scout Sniper Instructors can teach. Tell me what's wrong with that? Just because I'm trying to get a business going doesn't mean I'm going to put up with crap like this and especially the false accusations.

Guys, re-read what I wrote since apparently some are just skimming it.

Our sales training with pictures of our salesmen.

When he says he can teach himself what we teach I'll call him out and he deserved what he got. You encourage me to sell my product; I am. Waiting for MCgunner to let Pat Rogers know he can teach himself everything Pat teaches too.

Anyway, at the class we'll also be doing some extreme long range shooting with .50 EDM Arms Windrunners. The chow will be a lot of venison and elk. Maybe even some Rocky Mountain Oysters if George Hill shows up

likely not going to teach himself what combat veteran Marine Scout Sniper Instructors can teach.

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No, but I don't WANT to be a Scout Sniper. I can and have learned marksmanship without school training, though I do admit my uncle was a certified NRA instructor and WW2 combat veteran in Europe and perhaps the best shot I've ever known.

When I took up handgun shooting, there were no "combat schools" and I do pretty well with it, learned from reading and doing. I have a good knowledge of exterior ballistics and just the pure marksmanship of the shooting, what's so tough to learn? Now, extraction technics, infiltration, other sniper stuff I'm simply not interested in. Who's calling who a mall ninja fer Christ's sake? Hey, I'm sure with all the tacticool wannabes running around the net, they'll be lined up for the course! It ain't something I care about, though. If I was going to take a course in shooting, it'd be the "shoot where you look" shotgun thing that guy teaches in Houston. I always thought I might improve my wing shooting if I took that. But, for 500 bucks, I'll miss a few birds. Sure looks fun and informative, though, in something I could actually use. I mean, I ain't a bad wingshot, either, but just watching that guy shoot aspirins out of the air with a sightless BB gun is impressive. It's one of those "feel the force, Luke" things, I guess. I have a BB gun. Maybe I'll buy a bottle of aspirins and try it. I can buy a lot of BBs and aspirins for 500 bucks.

How about we quit with all the personal challenges, bravado, and "not worth my money posts and stick to topics related to the course.

Learning long-range shooting is a lot harder and more time consuming without good teachers and mentors and it makes zero sense to try to tear down those who are trying to do it professionally.

-z

Learning long-range shooting is a lot harder and more time consuming without good teachers and mentors and it makes zero sense to try to tear down those who are trying to do it professionally.

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LongRangeInternational may offer great instruction, but on this board he has personally attacked a long time member, and made insinuations about others. LRI is the one doing the tearing down, MCgunners responses have been nothing but "High Road".

Thanks, Zak. We'd sure like to see you come out and shoot sometime.

MCgunner, since you're tearing down our course in public, the extract is for fun at the end. So is the BBQ. To my knowledge, no one in this thread called anyone a mall ninja. Just because you're quoting stuff out of context, here's the course outline. Let me know when you're ready to ante up.

Here are the details on the course. Tentative dates are June 1 - June 7. 5 days of training, and a day before and after for travel. I am limiting the course to 10 students for logistic purposes. The course will be conducted on private land in Eastern Wyoming. The training area is exactly 10 miles west of Lance Creek, Wyoming. The purpose of the course is to become efficient with the scoped rifle that you bring. Also, the course is designed to provide you with the information you need to grab a gun, go to the hills, and survive. The training area is very large and offers unlimited ranges. The goal is not to score headshots at 1000 yards but to shoot your rifle to its max capable range. If your rifle can only accurately shoot 300 yards do not worry. We have loaner rifles that can shoot accurately out to 1000 yards.

Here is the course outline:

Day 1 - classes (shooting fundamentals, ballistics, scope theory, cold bore)

Day 2 - Rifle range (zero, shooting drills, engagement out to 500 yds)

Day 3 - Rifle Range (zero, cold bore, FBI course, engagement to 1000 yds)

Day 4- Classes in morning(field skills, mission planning, land navigation)
Afternoon(mission prep followed by mission brief)
Evening- begin mission, 1-3 mile patrol through "enemy" territory and set up position on objective.

Day 5 - Final shot on objective, extract, vehicle shooting, bonus shoot, debrief

Your course looks like it would be fun challenging and FUN! Too bad...I'm sure I counldn't afford to play yet. 2 Family Vactions already booked and who knows how long it will be before I could take that kind of time for myself. Otherwise I would!

I've read this entire thread as well as many others that went down this road before. Often times it's best to just ignore comments you think are personal attacks as this is the internet and any Tom Dick or Harry could be here and getting into a contest of words over trivial things doesn't ever make anyone look good regardless of who's right or wrong. I say let it go guys!

This sounds like a great course taught by very qualified people. Do you have any plans to break it up into a couple of weekends?

We have more courses coming up. The second is almost full. Due to the location and logistics of getting there, there's not much use in breaking it down unless you're a local.

Already let it go, jpwilly. Like I said, anyone who wants to can ante up and meet us or our students at the range. It's very easy to talk big on the internet, not so easy on the unknown distance course.

I'd love to, but...

I cant afford it, and I don't have a weapon that will out distance my abilities right now, when I get a 30-06, then that will be a different story. I can hit consistantly at 400y with an M16, which really isn't that great of a rifle. It does have good sights though.

LRI, when you guys are doing the 1k shots, I have to assume you are prone, mainly do it being the most stable (for me anyways, I dont count bench rests because you dont take them with you, usually). Are you using bipods? Also, at that type of distance, what power of scope are you using? I'm most definately interested, but I can get some of that instruction, the long range shooting at least, here. One of my coworkers is a former marine scout sniper. Also, what caliber are you using for those type shots, .50?

what caliber are you using for those type shots, .50?

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Anyway, at the class we'll also be doing some extreme long range shooting with .50 EDM Arms Windrunners.

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http://www.edmarms.com/main.htm

Sounds like tons of fun. Wish I could do it.

Institutional knowledge passed down from generations of Marine Snipers is not always available via Google, gents.

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Where did all this institutional knowledge come from in the first place I wonder. It came from those same generations of Marine snipers learning by trial and error the same way anyone else learns.

Your school is undoubtedly more efficient at teaching people how to shoot at long range, I don't think anyone is disputing that. However, that doesn't make it impossible for a sufficiently dedicated person to self-teach. It will take that person longer to learn, perhaps years longer perhaps only months, but longer in any case; still, it is possible. The way you're posting though it sounds as though you think it's impossible for anyone to ever become a competent distance shooter without going through your training. Yes, you're providing a valuable service, but it's not the be-all and end-all.

357, Didn't say it was impossible. Like I said, MCgunner will have the chance to go up against one of our students of our 5 day course whenever he's ready. It's not impossible but it's my observation that those that sneer at training and say "well, I could teach myself that" aren't the ones that can or actually will teach themselves.

We're going to have 5 combat veteran Marine Scout Snipers instructing. We're going to chronograph everybody's load and give them their comeups. We're going to be running classes almost all day, from sunup to sundown. We'll be pushing the limits with each and every gun brought. I get a little prickly when someone cruises through this thread, doesn't even bother looking at what we're doing and wises off about how he could save the money and teach himself, he's just not so inclined right now. Trying to take the high road here but others didn't from the start.

Sounds like a fascinating class. Couple of questions - ANY possibility of ever running something like this in Canada? Particularly in Alberta? I'm assuming not likely. How much of a beginner can you work with? And, the last question... not asking you to give up any trade secrets - but any resources you'd recommend for the poor man who HAS to teach himself because he can't make it to your classes?

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My money is on McGunner, not some salesman.

Stick to selling the training and not bashing someone who thinks he can train himself. Most of us are self taught.


Salesman? From what I've seen, all the instructors are the real deal. I'm relatively sure that not everyone that tries the Marine Corps Scout Sniper program actually makes it thru and graduates.(correct me if I am wrong longrangeinternational) Mcgunner just as well of said that it would be a waste of money to take this fellas course when he or anyone can teach themselves how to do it. I do agree that most of us are self taught when it comes to shooting or rather "Dad" taught. Look, the training these guys are offering cant be googled or bought. I'm not going to the classes, it's just not cup of tea, but a spade is a spade. To be totally honest with you, I don't think a fella could gather enough information, from whatever source, to be able to emulate what I see offered here for $850.00. I've been a member here for a long time Longrange so believe me when I tell you, you hurt one of these guy's feelings and you may well end up with several people making slick comments to you just because you may have said something against someone that has more time here or a higher thread count.
That being said, I wish you the best of luck and I look forward to those online reviews. Thank you for your service and good luck!

Thanks for posting some reason, itote and taliv. Anyone who browses our forum would see very quickly what kind of knowledge will be taught.

Malplicito, get 10 students together and find us a good range or two, we might be able to make it happen.

Here's a view from behind my SR-25 during the Battle of Fallujah in 2004. We made a lot of shooting positions by knocking out bricks.

Any chance you might come down to Florida to teach?

I haven't posted here on this site very much, but have been visiting quite regularly. I've never served in the US military (father was career Infantry), but have been serving my local citizens as a Police Officer for 11 years now.

I'm a certified Firearms Instructor thru the State, and one of my Dept.'s instructors. Most of my shooting knowledge came from years of experience & basically reading everything I could & learning from anyone I could. All of my shooting skills have been in pistols.....

I recently got interested in rifle shooting, and started trying to self teach on all the techniques of being a good long distance shooter (sniper). I spent months & months on the internet reading, buying books & trying my best to improve. Our Dept. sniper left for another agency & I was picked to replace him and go to the Sniper school taught at the State training center.

This school is in no way in the same league as any of our military sniper schools (especially the Marines! ), but what I learned there in 5 days from the instructors was awesome. Real world experience was passed down with very personal instruction & I didn't have to waste time or ammo trying to figure something out or testing it to see if it actually worked.

I would never try and assume that I could learn the same things I learned from the instructors from books or articles on the internet. To have someone right there with you & showing you what they've learned in the real world of sniping (or long distance shooting) is something that is very hard to replicate.

I do agree with Mcgunner that most people can teach themselves how to shoot a rifle accurately with enough time. However, I can completely relate to Long R.I., that you simply can't duplicate on your own the invaluable information that you can learn from a military trained combat veteran on this subject.

I wish I had the vacation time, money & ability to be able to attend one of your courses. Until then I'll have to be content to stay here & continue developing my sniper data log on my own to build up my dope data. Semper Fi guys, & thank you for your service to our wonderful country!!

No disrespect to you Mcgunner, I understand where your coming from.......not wanting to learn how to be a sniper, but others might want to, so I think it'd be a great class.

Just my 2 cents......