Revolver cylinder gap gas severs thumb, now shooter sues S&W

.45&TKD said:

Yes, there is a proper way to hold a revolver(several ways in fact)

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I guess I never thought theres a different way.
I'm interested to see this as well. A proper and improper way would be good if available

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Anyone care to elaborate. Pictures would be helpful.

I've been on this forum for years and this is the first time I've seen this topic come up.

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Here's the way I was taught, and I've seen a couple wheelgun old-timers unconsciously use this grip when picking up a semiauto, and then readjust. Try and keep your hand as far up the grip as possible to bring the barrel-axis close to your wrist-axis, which will reduce muzzle-flip.
(Note: this was an awkward picture to take by myself)



Here's the grip I see most people using who regularly shoot semiautos, with the support-hand just cupping the grip-hand. It's harder to control the revolver and you'll get more muzzle-flip this way.
As said before, there's more than one way hold a revolver, especially with all the different grip styles now. I'm not saying my thumb-over is the right way, just how I was taught and I've seen others use.



This is how the idiot who lost his thumb was likely holding his .460.



And this is just a .357.... Imagine now a .460!

I found a picture of a .500.

Hold on, this is a rough ride...

If I was a lawyer (I'm not) and really sleazy (I'm not), I could set up the complaint like this. It will convince any average American on a jury:

• The lawsuit notes that Plaintiff purchased the 460 revolver after seeing Smith & Wesson ads that touted it as a great way to hunt game, such as deer.
• To hunt deer effectively with these revolvers, it is normal and customary to mount a telescopic sight. Plaintiff followed the manufacturer's suggestion and purchased the revolver for a deer hunt, then mounted a suitable telescopic sight as is normal and customary.
• Once a telescopic sight is mounted on a Smith & Wesson 460 revolver, the design makes it so excessively front-heavy such that one cannot safely support it with the standard two-hand grip. One is forced to utilize forward support, for which many firearms of this magnitude provide a forearm or foregrip to safely support the firearm.
• This firearm utilizes a cartridge that produces 65,000 pounds per square inch of pressure, equaling magnum rifle cartridges. Rifles utilizing cartridges of that pressure always have a protected forearm and fully enclosed firing chamber to contain hot gases safely. The Smith & Wesson 460 does not, and is inherently very unsafe.
• A revolver utilizing this unique cartridge should be designed such that it can be used as advertised while being held safely. Any revolver designed with a gap between the firing chamber and barrel should never be manufactured to utilize this cartridge, unless a safe forearm or foregrip are provided.
• Smith & Wesson's published warnings are thus specious and arbitrary, since one cannot safely support a weapon in a normal and customary manner, which fires such an extraordinary cartridge, if a proper forearm or foregrip are not provided.

See? It's easy to fabricate a winning lawsuit. You need to focus on the advertisement, and make the printed warning sound specious and arbitrary.

Let me be really clear: Don't flame me. I do not advocate the complaint I fabricated above. I'm simply illustrating that bogus product liability complaints can be made to sound very, very plausible.

He's only suing for a single digit.

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on man...

Hold on, this is a rough ride...
If I was a lawyer (I'm not) and really sleazy (I'm not), I could set up the complaint like this. It will convince any average American on a jury:

* The lawsuit notes ....

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I hate to say it but... I see your point.

AnaxImperator,

Thanks.

I'm embarrassed to admit, I've shot my revolvers with the same over hand grip that I shoot my semi-autos with. I didn't know it was wrong.

.357 mags out of a SP101 and 44 mags out of a S&W 29-2. The tip of my thumb could feel the gas, but never got hurt. Of course, I don't shoot the revolvers much.

Any bets as to rather or not there is a warning on all new S&W revos built?

I can't laugh at the guy, I did almost the same thing with a S&W 500.

I used my hand to brace the barrel and when I fired my forearm was stung with powder burns and had a very small, light cut. It stung, but not that badly, I didn't even drop the pistol, although I felt like it for a second.

Should have bought a nagant.

Or a rifle....

Go to Google, put in "cylinder gap" and click image search. The first pic I believe is the one that relates to it, at least that's what the caption says. It's graphic.

.44 mag vs polish sausage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_TNvPhTiB8&feature=related

The lawyers argument will be that S&W should have had some sort of guard or cover over that area so that possibly couldnt happen to his ignorant client.

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Should probably add a cage over the barrel too. And definately one over this guys nether region so he cannot reproduce.

ants actually makes a compelling case. That something that discharges hot plasma doesn't have a shield looks bad for S&W. It would be different if everyone knew about this kind of thing and not to hold it there, but I sure didn't and I'm sure most people don't. Even table saws have a protective shield, although presumably everyone knows not to touch the spinny part.

On the other hand, "vampire bites" from semiautos are common and I don't see much about that.

I'm guessing alcohol played a role in this accident.

On the other hand, "vampire bites" from semiautos are common and I don't see much about that

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Hadn't thought about that, I should sue the piss out of the mfr of my hi-power....

On the other, other hand...

I heard this guy used to be all thumbs.

Go to Google, put in "cylinder gap" and click image search. The first pic I believe is the one that relates to it, at least that's what the caption says. It's graphic.

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OK ... now that's more believable. Not exactly a severed thumb since it doesn't look like much (if any) bone was removed ... but that HAD to sting a little!! S&W needs to find out if this guy was shooting reloads or factory ammunition. It could make a difference to the lawsuit.

placed his left hand under the trigger guard

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That's some lawyer spin right there. To sever a digit he had to have been practically gripping the gap.

Moreover, ANY magnum revolver or even a normal revolver can cause serious injury if you grip it there.

Hopefully S&W will stand by their guns this time around, and not repeat Ruger's mistake.

I've shot my revolvers with the same over hand grip that I shoot my semi-autos with. I didn't know it was wrong.

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You're not wrong, unless you are grabbing the gap or forward of the gap.

REMEMBER THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHAT HAPPENED AND WHAT THE LAWYER CLAIMS HAPPENED!!

And maybe he should never be allowed to reproduce or buy any more guns.

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Lucky for him, he was supporting with HIS HAND. OK. That was wrong.

He's only suing for a single digit.

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Nice one, Antibubba.

It sounds to me like he tried to hold it like a tiny little rifle, putting his left hand where the stock would be on a rifle or Thompson Contender. Is that correct?

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That's exactly what he was doing. A +70-oz handgun will tempt the subconscious into this type of misuse. I really do feel sympathetic toward him but I still think the guy should have taken the time to know his equipment better, and should not blame the manufacturer. We are having a hard time getting revolvers the way we want them anyway.

Remind me to shoot anything bigger than .44mag out of a long gun...

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Are people going to start thinking this way now? Does this mean that I'll have access to a whole bunch of big-bores that will be selling for cheap?

I bet you this fellow's comments over on AR15 will come back to haunt him.

I saw the pics, and I've seen worse. Much much worse. This is a flesh wound and it's bleeding nicely. Debride it, sew it up, stop infections and you're good to go with a little scar on your thumb.

I have no idea if the guy pressing this lawsuit is the same as the guy who posted these pictures. This poor guy also blasted his thumb with the S&W magnum revolver.

However, if S&W put these pictures in their manual, every one would remember where not to put their support hand.

Oh fer cryin' out loud slamfire! Put thoses image behind a link and warn people. I was eating my lunch! Now I'm not.

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Be warned, these pictures are not to be viewed by those who are bothered by nasty mutilated body parts!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Thumb blown off/Thumb1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Thumb blown off/Thumb2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Thumb blown off/Thumb3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Thumb blown off/Thumb4.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Thumb blown off/Thumb5.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Thumb blown off/Thumb6.jpg

I could be wrong but I believe the guy with the image that can be Googled up is not the same guy that's floated the suit.

I've only taken more than a casual interest in revolvers recently and stumbled across the gap issue more or less by accident. If memory serves, it's one of the few cases where an early episode of CSI actually got it right.

It is in the manual but another problem might be that there's no "special case" for the .460 / .500 though the results are considerably different than with the more mainstream chamberings.

It may also not help that the red text regarding the barrel / cylinder gap is not emphasized any more than the seemingly endless parade of other "red text warnings". In fact, it seems to be given the same degree of emphasis as the recommended method of dealing with a misfire. Perhaps a side effect of a litigous society but when 1/3 of the manual is already printed in red with breathless warnings, how does one make something that might sever a digit "stand out"? Day-glo orange, flashing? Red print manual warnings have taken on the aspect of "The Boy Who Cried "Wolf".

I'm old school enough that I'm of the opinion one should pay for one's own ineptitude but I don't have a warm and fuzzy about this.

At the very least I expect S&W to start including a day-glo orange sticker in each box along the lines of the warning Kimber includes regarding holding the grip safety during disassembly.

It would be different if everyone knew about this kind of thing and not to hold it there, but I sure didn't and I'm sure most people don't.

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Only those that read the manual or have received even the most rudimentary training before blazing away...

It may also not help that the red text regarding the barrel / cylinder gap is not emphasized any more than the seemingly endless parade of other "red text warnings

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Right...how about red w/yellow stripes and green polka dots? That will differentiate it from less important things like not pointing the gun at someone else...

Oh fer cryin' out loud slamfire! Put thoses image behind a link and warn people. I was eating my lunch! Now I'm not.

I have mixed feelings about this too. I've used that self-correcting grip once before on a .38 Spl.

It stung pretty bad, but drew no blood.

I wouldn't have known about the thumb severing power of the .460 if I hadn't heard about this.

I think S&W should definitely be warning people in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS. about this.

Maybe I'm smarter than your average bear (even though I didn't think that I was), but I inherently knew that I could not hold a revolver the same way that I hold an auto. The grip that I stumbled upon is the same one that most people recommend.

I think that if I were using a revolver that was so heavy that I couldn't handle it with a normal grip I would get a monopod or something to set it on when shooting it.

WARNING: ALWAYS KEEP YOUR FINGERS AWAY
FROM THE AREA BETWEEN THE CYLINDER AND
THE BARREL DURING FIRING. PARTICLES AND HOT
GAS WILL BE FORCED OUT FROM BETWEEN THE BARREL
AND CYLINDER IN ANY REVOLVER DURING NORMAL USE.
FAILURE TO FOLLOW THIS WARNING WILL CAUSE SERIOUS
PERSONAL INJURY.
• Always use the proper grip as shown for a two-hand hold
(Figures 11 & 12). This keeps hands and fingers away from
the barrel/cylinder gap.
• Never allow hands or fingers to extend beyond the front of the
cylinder when firing (Figures 13 & 14). This is an improper
hold for any revolver.

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I think S&W should definitely be warning people in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS. about this

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Seems pretty clear to me. Now I know why a push lawnmower costs $400...because nobody thought it was unwise to stick hands and feet underneath it while running, hence that endearing "safety bar" and $50 worth of stickers.