Deadly Force: Hollowpoint or FMJ?

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From Bubba613:
Given that everything can be spun (and will be) by a prosecutor to the defendant's disadvantage, then the logical next step to your assertion is just to do nothing and wait to be a victim.
I find that unacceptable.

I don't agree that that's the next logical step, but I think most of us will agree wholeheartedly that it's unacceptable!

I will take what I consider to be the most reasonable steps to avoid a confrontation in the first place, to de-escalate a confrontation where possible, to avoid shooting where possible, and to shoot to end the threat when all else fails.

Great strategy.

My choice of weapon and ammo will be geared to the last resort and assume that everything else has failed.

The "last resort" will include an investigation and perhaps prosecution.

But I am not going to sit around and say "well, in one case 20 years ago in NJ the jury thought this was detrimental so I'm not going to use it." That's nonsense.

The jury never saw the evidence--the trial judge refused to admit it. However, it is not the outcome of the Bias case in the trial courts on which a prudent person would bet his record, fortune, and personal freedom. That the appellate courts evidently did not find the trial court judge to have been in error might tend to give one pause, though.

In the case of most kinds of evidence, all evidence that is introduced is to be admitted and weighed by the jury. Scientific forensic evidence and expert testimony is another matter--the trial judge will decide, based on certain criteria, whether that kind of evidence will be admitted in court. I believe that one will almost always see fingerprints, DNA, hair and fiber evidence, mass spec testing data, etc. admitted; to the best of my knowledge one will not see polygraph test results admitted anywhere as evidence in a capital case.

Should GSR become an issue, the trial judge would have to decide on the admissibility as evidence of GSR test data on the ammunition used by the defendant. My lay interpretation of the criteria now set forth for the Federal courts is that handload test data would probably not be admitted. The new Federal precedent would likely not be determinative in a state court, but the principles involved in the Federal precedent could certainly influence the trial court judge's decision--the state would no doubt make the same kind of arguments that influenced the Supreme Court.

One might reasonably assess the likelihood that the refusal of a trial judge to admit ammunition test results might determine the trial outcome as low, unless the lack of GSR evidence on the victim were to weigh heavily. One might reasonably assess the likelihood that the choice of hand loads might influence the jury's assessment of the defendant's state of mind and determine the outcome as very low. That these factors, in combination with other evidence or the lack thereof, might tip the balance in the minds of the jury cannot be reasonably argued, however. And when assessing risks, likelihood must be considered in combination with the potential consequences, which in this discussion include conviction for murder in a case in which the fact that the defendant killed the victim has already been established.

Now, if premium factory ammunition were demonstrably less reliable and effective than hand loads one would have to enter the likelihood and potential consequences of ammunition failure into the equation, but I cannot accept that any reasonable person would actually believe that today.

By the way, I started shooting fifty two years ago and I started hand loading two years later. If memory serves, I have had two center fire rounds fail to fire. Both were WWII military rounds. For all I know, the .38 Spl. FMJ round spent most of the war on a dock. The 6.5X52MM rifle round had the bullet seated in an unsized case via a couple of dimples. The bullet wobbled and the case was essentially unsealed against the elements.

From MP3Mogul:
You carry hollowpoints because they break up on impact and do not go through the bad guy, thus causing harm to an innocent bystander.

Yes indeed. That's why I retired a 9MM that only functions reliably with ball ammunition (after reading Mas Ayoob's latest book).
 
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I did a quick search of the two names involved in the Fish shooting

It seems there was some information that was supressed by the DA regarding the guy that was shot. From what I could gather he had quite a temper and there was even something about him with regard to his former girlfriend.

Anyway, back to the original topic of this thread.

It seems that in most circumstances, factory manufactured high quality hollow point ammo is the safest way to go not only in terms of stopping an attacker, but also so any GSR investigation can be done with regard to that ammo.

It makes me glad I have some quality factory ammo on hand for my guns.
 
It seems there was some information that was supressed by the DA regarding the guy that was shot. From what I could gather he had quite a temper and there was even something about him with regard to his former girlfriend.

Such information is not going to make it into evidence because it has no bearing on the case. You can prove a person was mentaly unstable by saying the facts, aka that you saw them mumblind/drooling while standing in the corner, that they were yelling at people/things that weren't there, etc. However in court you can't use information that you weren't aware of (such as the person just broke up with their wife) because you didn't know that at the time.
 
GregGry said:
It seems there was some information that was supressed by the DA regarding the guy that was shot. From what I could gather he had quite a temper and there was even something about him with regard to his former girlfriend.

Such information is not going to make it into evidence because it has no bearing on the case. You can prove a person was mentaly unstable by saying the facts, aka that you saw them mumblind/drooling while standing in the corner, that they were yelling at people/things that weren't there, etc. However in court you can't use information that you weren't aware of (such as the person just broke up with their wife) because you didn't know that at the time.
That's generally true. Prior bad acts or the bad character of the decedent is normally not admissible.

There is a small exception to that general rule, at least in some jurisdictions. And that my come into play here.

In Fish's appeal brief, he appears to be arguing that the prosecution introduced evidence of the decedent's good character. I just noticed this in scanning through the brief.

In that case, if the prosecution has opened the door, the defense, under most rules of evidence, would then be entitled to introduce evidence of the decedent's bad character or prior "bad acts."

Usually when the prosecutor introduces evidence of the decedent's good character in cases like this, he is laying the foundation to argue, "It's inconceivable that someone like the decedent could have acted in such a violent and aggressive manner, so the defendant's story must be a lie." So when the prosecutor makes that sort of argument, the rules of evidence will generally permit the defendant to introduce evidence that may show that in fact the decedent might well have acted in the violent manner described by the defendant.

It's a subtle point, and in most cases, you're correct. Evidence or the decedent's character would not be admissible -- most of the time. I guess we'll have to wait to see how the court of appeals deals with the question in Fish's case.
 
Bubba said:
My issue with the Fish case is that the guy appeared to be about 30 yards away. Certainly no threat if unarmed.

As were the two dogs. Now I don't know about you, but after two dogs and an angry dude charging at me, I'd be very inclined to fire especially if the warnings I gave (including a warning shot) to not only control the dogs but also stop charging were ineffective. An angry dude charging at me, much bigger and taller, ignoring my orders to stop after presenting my firearm, and what, you want me to go hand to hand until I start losing? You want me to bet my life on the hope he doesn't have a weapon?

When exactly does a fist fight turn into a knife fight, when you get stabbed? Is that when you shoot, after you realize that he may beat you unconscious with his fists or has already stabbed you?

If you decide to charge at me an in aggressive manner while shouting threats, despite the presentation of a firearm and warnings to cease the attack, and you get shot at you know, 10 feet away (that is, about 27 yards + of warnings), why would you be surprised? Why should a defender have to give an attacker the benefit of the doubt?
 
Just reading OP... IMO go with HP ammin handgun. You need every advantage you can get. The ONLY Police that DON'T carry a HP rd are those that their LEGISLATURE/out of touch admin mandate fmj only.
HP is safer for EVERYONE. Fewer rds "should" cause a attacker to reconsider his actions. (more likely to live after medical treatment) Less rds fired means less chance of a miss hitting something you don't want to. HP should NOT go thru and endanger others/leave two holes in attacker.
 
I Like .40 S&W JHP

Deanimator said:
The .45 FMJs are never going to be bigger than .451.

The .45 JHPs are never going to be SMALLER than .451. They probably will get to between .60 and .80. Tell me the downside again...
But my .40 S&W Speer Gold Dot 155gr projectiles (exact same round carried by local PD here) start out at only .40" in diameter and - according to FBI tests - can be expected to expand to .84" whether fired from my full sized Glock or my compact Uzi Eagle. That beats all the .45 acp that I could find test data for. I couldn't find anything about permanent wound channel measurement, but I would expect a larger mushroom to make a larger permanent wound channel.

Now the purpose of carrying is NEVER to kill anyone. All I am ever interested in is stopping someone who is acting in such a manner as to justify my use of deadly force in accordance with TPC chapter 9. But I would expect that a more expansive projectile would make a greater wound and be more likely to stop the person.

But some people are harder to convince to stop doing something so I load the Uzi Eagle with 11 (10+1) rounds and the Glock with 16 (15+1). Never heard about someone losing a close encounter of the leadly kind due to having too much ammo. Heard of 'em losing due to having too LITTLE ammo but never from having ammo left over. Am I wrong?

As for deadly force being a last resort, I agree. But if it comes down to someones wife being a widow, I will do my best to see that it isn't mine.

Here are where I found some good test result data:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/40s&w.htm
http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/45acp.htm

Cyborg
 
This isn't about case law.
BS. If the method of delivering deadly force was really a factor in determining whether or not the use of force was justified there would certainly be cases that supported that theory.

However, there are NO cases that support that theory, and in fact there are cases that directly contradict that theory. One of the most famous of which is the example I gave earlier of Bernard Goetz. There was no subtlety such as whether his choice of weapons was too much, it was clearly a use of an illegally possessed/carried weapon. He had no legal right to have that weapon with him, and despite the fact that it was illegal for him to have that weapon he was determined to have been justified in using deadly force to defend himself.

Again, if lethal force is justified by a threat of death or serious bodily injury, the tool you use to deliver that justified force is irrelevant.

I have NEVER seen any caselaw that supporst the notion that the instrument used to deliver deadly force is a factor in determining whether deadly force was justified. I have NEVER seen any caselaw that supports the idea that the instrument used to deliver deadly force is a factor in a civil tort, if the person intended to deliver deadly force. I have heard of one case where modifications to a firearm were a factor in a civil tort involving an accidental discharge. However, the key distinction there is that the delivery of deadly force was UNINTENTIONAL, not an intentional use of deadly force for self defense.
 
DMF said:
BS. If the method of delivering deadly force was really a factor in determining whether or not the use of force was justified there would certainly be cases that supported that theory....
I guess that you haven't been paying attention. The issue is about jury psychology.
 
I would use a frag grenade if I had to. I shoot regular white box ammo for everything, Thats why I have four mags of 13 in 45 acp. I would slap another mag in and let him have all those too!

If he's worth shootin once, he's worth shootin twice.

I live in ARIZONA, we kill stupid people here and the court doesn't get hung up on stupid crap like what bullets did we use. ship me your black talons and golden sabers . . . lol.
 
R00KIE said:
...I live in ARIZONA, we kill stupid people here and the court doesn't get hung up on stupid crap like what bullets did we use. ship me your black talons and golden sabers...
Oh really. Maybe you should check out the Harold Fish case. You can Google him, and there are plenty of posts in this thread discussing his situation.

He was convicted, in Arizona, by an Arizona jury, in an Arizona court presided over by an Arizona judge, and sentenced to 22 years in an Arizona prison, following what a lot of folks think was a righteous self defense shooting.
 
I guess that you haven't been paying attention. The issue is about jury psychology.
No I have been paying attention. I've been paying attention on this topic for years. You can say it's about jury psychology all you want, but there is no case that supports your claims.

The jury in the Fish case did not decide that case because of the tool used to deliver deadly force. They believed that Fish was not justified in using deadly force period.

Again, there is no case out there that has been decided based on what tool was used to deliver deadly force. They are ALL decided on whether deadly force itself was justified. That is what the jury will be instructed to base their decision on when deliberating.
 
DMF said:
...They are ALL decided on whether deadly force itself was justified. That is what the jury will be instructed to base their decision on when deliberating....
I also guess that you've had no experience with juries. IME, they do indeed try to follow instructions, but they must also make judgments and weigh the evidence.

For example, in post #116, TwitchALot quotes one of the Fish jurors as saying, "....The whole hollow point thing bothered me. That bullet is designed to do as much damage as absolutely possible. It’s designed to kill." In post verdict interviews of jurors in cases in which I've been involved, jurors have explained how factors relating to their impression of the defendant or a witness affected how much weight or credence they gave a particular piece of evidence.

As GEM pointed out in post #69,
GEM said:
....The legal and jury research literature clearly indicates the role of emotional variables in influencing juries. There have been specific studies that indicate that weapons appearance and exposure issues can be detrimental to a defendant. It interacts with gender of juror, shooter and juror gun expertise.....
 
DMF said:
The jury in the Fish case did not decide that case because of the tool used to deliver deadly force. They believed that Fish was not justified in using deadly force...
But why was that what they believed? What were the factors in the evidence that caused them to conclude that Fish wasn't justified?

Fish testified that his assailant came charging downhill at him, angry, violent and shouting threats and the he [Fish] was in fear of his life. Fish also testified that he displayed his gun and several times shouted to his assailant to stop. Fish testified, and the State's firearm expert corroborated, that he [Fish] held his fire until his assailant was almost on top of him and finally shot at a distance of some 5 to 8 feet. There was also evidence that Fish's assailant was a younger, larger and heavier man.

As described, that is an almost textbook justified shooting based on disparity of force. Yet somehow the jury discounted Fish's testimony and the evidence supporting his self defense plea, and gave more credence to the prosecutor's evidence. Why? What emotional and psychological factors affecting the jury's assessment of the evidence contributed to that result?
 
If you have ever been to a trial about which you had knowledge, you will have observed that the verdict was less about justice than about the information presented to the jury by the attorneys and the judge to use in making their decision... even information that might have been intentionally twisted to be used against you. It doesn't make too much difference what ammo or what gun you used to stop the attack, or even how justified was the shooting. What matters is that you have the better and more experienced attorney who can work the jury and judge to your advantage. Don't ever believe that because you did everything right, that you will be found innocent. Survive the attack first, then get a good lawyer.
 
From kimber98:

If you have ever been to a trial about which you had knowledge, you will have observed that the verdict was less about justice than about the information presented to the jury by the attorneys and the judge to use in making their decision...

The second part is certainly true--it's about information presented to the jury--but I don't see how a jury can make a just decision without evaluating the facts.

What the defendant perceives as justice and what the family of the victim perceive as justice will undoubtedly not converge.

even information that might have been intentionally twisted to be used against you.

It can certainly seem that way based on my experience. However, if the prosecutor in his summation were to say, "the defendant strapped on not one, but two Glocks [(the second being a "BUG")], along with two extra high capacity magazines, drove to the WalMart where he lingered for about twenty minutes, was seen by two witnesses to have been observing the deceased in different parts of the store, and left the store immediately after the deceased left the store...", it would probably not be accurate to characterize that as "twisting" the information, even though it might well help to put the defendant in a bad light.

It doesn't make too much difference what ammo or what gun you used to stop the attack, or even how justified was the shooting.

Actually, it is all about how justified was the shooting--under the law, if not in the shooter's opinion of how the law should read. The ammo or gun shouldn't enter into it, but if the selection were to influence the jury in their evaluation of the defendant's state of mind, it would make a difference.

What matters is that you have the better and more experienced attorney who can work the jury and judge to your advantage.

An able and experienced attorney is essential but may not be sufficient. He cannot create evidence that does not exist.

I've known, and known of, too many people who have believed that their attorneys can and will somehow rescue them after the deeds have been done and the evidence has been created.

Right now, the Governor of Illinois has retained someone said to be one of the best criminal trial lawyers in the profession. The former governor, who is in prison, also had a very good one.

Don't ever believe that because you did everything right, that you will be found innocent.

Right, if you add the word "necessarily". We hope that if the defendant did everything right, he will in fact be found innocent. But that will be heavily dependent on the evidence at hand.

In a self defense case (castle doctrine cases somewhat excepted), the defendant starts at a disadvantage: he has acknowledged that he has committed homicide (or that he has injured the victim).

The prosecution starts with the fact that the shooting by the defendant is not in question. He can add statements made by the defendant on the internet that "BGs" should be shot, or that a good lawyer will be able to "get him off" if he shoots someone. He may also introduce a list of the books on the defendant's bookshelf, and/or a list of the DVDs the defendant owns, to help establish the defendant's state of mind. The defendant's "good lawyer" can argue relevance, but in my lay opinion that's about all he can do other than produce evidence that counters that of the prosecution.

The defendant must produce convincing evidence showing that the homicide was justified. Absent corroborating witnesses or store security camera "footage"; a weapon from the victim or a slash on the defendant's sleeve; circumstantial evidence such as the fact that the shooting occurred in the middle of an otherwise empty parking lot next to the defendant's car, indicating that the victim's presence in that location was at least a strong indication of his intended malfeasance; and/or evidence that the shooting occurred at very short range, it would seem to this lay person that the defendant faces an uphill battle, armed with only his own account of what happened.

Survive the attack first, then get a good lawyer.

I would suggest that between surviving the attack and getting a lawyer, the "actor" and potential defendant-to-be should immediately identify all potential witnesses, and perhaps ask them if they saw the victim run at him with a knife and/or whatever other relevant events that eyewitnesses may not otherwise have noticed.
 
Anything can and will be used by an attorney trying to win his case. It does not matter what it is, you can search cases and find even where contradictory things have been used to win cases:

Find out which HOLLOWPOINT your local PD carries and carry it.

So, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, this man, the Defendant, wanted to be a cop, a person with the power to be the judge, jury, and executioner of the evil doer- a vigilante, a cop wannabe. So he even went to far as to research and buy the same ammunition as the local police, then he picked up his weapon and went searching for trouble, and he found it.

The same can be said for having a CCW, having taken classes in firearm self defense, owning an "arsenal," or even posting on a "gun nut" forum.

The opposition will use whatever they can legally get away with in order to win.
 
Kleanbore said:
...An able and experienced attorney is essential but may not be sufficient. He cannot create evidence that does not exist.

I've known, and known of, too many people who have believed that their attorneys can and will somehow rescue them after the deeds have been done and the evidence has been created....
This is a very important point. A lawyer can only work with the evidence available.
 
That's generally true. Prior bad acts or the bad character of the decedent is normally not admissible.

There is a small exception to that general rule, at least in some jurisdictions. And that my come into play here.

Yes you are completely correct. I completely forgot about that because the lawyers I deal with keep their clients from saying things like that because it opens the floodgates to a whole lot of stuff you don't want in.

So, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, this man, the Defendant, wanted to be a cop, a person with the power to be the judge, jury, and executioner of the evil doer- a vigilante, a cop wannabe. So he even went to far as to research and buy the same ammunition as the local police, then he picked up his weapon and went searching for trouble, and he found it.

Statements like these don't prove anything. So what that a person uses the same ammo as a local police department. That should have never been brought up since it has nothing to do with a person being justified in their actions. Any lawyer would be able to deal with statements like that. Incoherent statments/ramblings aren't going to get a conviction.
 
The way I look at it is that anything you say, don't say, do, don't do, etc., can and will be used against you if it suits the prosecutor's purposes. So the question is: do the upsides outweigh the downsides?

A prosecutor could try to use the fact that you've had professional training or used HP ammunition against you. But training and using good, commercial HP ammunition has some major upsides. Being well trained and using HP ammunition increases your chance of prevailing on the street. Your lawyer will need to tell a good story, but the upsides make it worth it.

But I don't see any real upsides to using handload (or things like wearing urban commando or mall ninja regalia to the pizza joint). That's not going to help you prevail on the street, and I wouldn't consider it to be worth any downside.
 
I can tell you I after testing accuracy out of commercial ammo such as golden sabers and gold dots, I don't see how it would be possible to get better accuracy. The again wolf ammo is more accurate then most people can shoot with a pistol. Its going to be hard to match the low flash, high velocity, reliability, etc of quality commercial ammo. Your going up against a pretty high standard, and your not likely going to better it.
 
I went with ball ammo for three reasons(fmj I think it's called)

1 because of the negative connotations HPs can generate in a court of law.

2 HPs sometimes don't feed as well as ball ammo. Square nose vs around nose bullet.

3 HPs sometimes don't work right. Lack of penetration, disintigates etc. Why do I say this? Because of the website Box O' Truth.http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot26.htm

Dunno where in this sight I saw what I saw but several tests revealed flaws in HPs. Some people have unflinching faith that HPs are always better and this may not be the case.
 
Mach2 posted "I went with ball ammo for three reasons(fmj I think it's called)

1 because of the negative connotations HPs can generate in a court of law.

2 HPs sometimes don't feed as well as ball ammo. Square nose vs around nose bullet.

3 HPs sometimes don't work right. Lack of penetration, disintigates etc. Why do I say this? Because of the website Box O' Truth.http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot26.htm

Dunno where in this sight I saw what I saw but several tests revealed flaws in HPs. Some people have unflinching faith that HPs are always better and this may not be the case."

IF ball ammo/fmj is all that reliably feeds you should stick with it. For those of us who don't have that problem we have choices.
Yep HP may NOT expand in some situations. So what? it still is same size as FMJ. (often the reason it does not expand is because the HP gets filled with jacket/shirt material and it behaves (Just like a FMJ) So shoot fmj or a ammo that at worst will act like fmj but normally will be better at STOPPING the attacker and LESS likely to go thru to (possibly) endanger others.

Some HP loads do NOT penetrate. (Corbon comes to mind) The early Win STHP was critisized for that. (because of mainly ONE shooting incident) :( (in FLorida,,,Maimi...)

Thing is everything is a trade off. IMO of more importance is CAN YOU HIT the threat? Do you trust the ammo/gun?. A 500 S&W MISS will likely do less to stop a attacker then a 9mm hit COM. (unless you blind them with muzzle flash) :)
 
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