Pistol for 4 year old?

Airsoft!!!

Then when they are responsible, over time, they can graduate to the next bigger thing. Treat their "toys" just like your guns and keep them in the safe with your guns. I did this with a few nephews and it worked well. "Boy I thought this old bb gun was so powerful back then", said a nephew.

Don't have a little kid shoot say a 45 or 44 mag so he ends up with a bad flinch his whole life. I've seen it. A guy says "my boy's been shooting a 45 since he was five." The boy a sixteen is right on target except in the dirt six feet in front of the target with a 9mm.

The age to start a child shooting should be up to the parent. Personally I would start a younger person out with a single action revolver in 22lr. There are many benefits to this. First, it's simple to operate. Cock the hammer, aim, pull the trigger; "bang" ("pop" actually... don't forget it's a .22lr). Take this time to teach him the finer points of muzzle control, sight picture, trigger control, and breathing.

Consider recoil also. You want to teach your kid to shoot, not flinch. Let him come into larger calibers on his own. The 22lr is also cheap so you get to shoot until he gets tired.

As for leaving a child unto his own with a firearm, I started shooting when I was 4. I always had my <way older> brother or father with me. After I was 18 I could take out the rifles or shotguns on my own, but my father never let me take his handguns out without him until he passed them down to me when I was 34. Somehow that still seems reasonable to me.

-MW

Too young

Well, Dannix, 4 is awfully young. I'd have to go along with those who said start with nerf. Later move up to airsoft, then bb/pellet. After you haven't looked down the wrong end of those for some time move up to.22. And anything more potent than a dart gun is always, only used with you there. Check the laws, too.

It can be hard to teach muzzle control to adults. I had to knock a shotgun away one day that an adult pointed at me to tell me it jammed. Scared me out of a couple years of my life! (Took my toys & went home while I still could too.) Getting a 4 year old to understand how vitally important it is to not point a weapon at something that doesn't need shooting..... Challenging at best.

Cognitive development aside, it's hard for hands that small to hold even a metal framed bb pistol or to shoulder the stock on a small bb rifle. (Stop by Cabelas' shooting gallery & see how those toys fit. You'll see what I mean)

They can be started young. My oldest had her first bb rifle at 7, 1st .22 rifle at 8. She did fine with them. My youngest at 8 had a lever Daisy. Just too impulsive. IMHO, before kindergarten is way too young. They don't even recommend real LEGOS at that age, let alone firearms. Let them grow until you know they'll understand and listen. Mistakes are too costly and there might not be a second chance.

Besides the question was which pistol would be a good choice. That does not require all of the additional poop to be added.

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Well, eloiabloe1, I believe the 'additional poop' answers the 'which pistol for a preschooler?' question as 'none, here's why.'

That gun is the size of your daughter's head!!
You are one cool dad. That is an awesome picture.

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Thanks! She's shot quite a bit for a 7-year old (note great isoseles stance, knees flexed, weight forward, proper grip, thumbs forward, etc.) and the 629 is her favorite. I give her only my IDPA .44 Spc. loads @ 825 fps which don't move that 42 oz. gun much. Obviously she doesn't have the finger length or strength for the DA pull but the SA pull is <2lbs. on that gun and she does very well with it.

I've read this thread thoroughly and it seems to have split into two divergent tracks. I think the two sides are talking right past each other.

A LOT of posters have expressed that you should never "give" a child a gun until they're 8, 12, 16, 18, heck one even said 34! A bunch have said, "give them nerf, rubber-band guns, Airsoft, etc." "Real guns are too much for four year olds," seems to sum this side of the debate up.

But I don't think Dannix had any intention of presenting his preschool pals with handguns and a, "Now run along and stay out of trouble," pat on the head. A few posters seem to be on a much more realistic vibe and are offering advice of how you CAN introduce kids to shooting firearms and keep it safe and responsible. It certainly does require the parent/teacher to be performing almost all of the gun handling and safety functions. It certainly does require a level of "hands-on" control well beyond that of, say, a 10 year old in a 4-H shooting class. This seems like it would be obvious.

But concerns that the kids can't tell real life shooting from video games, or can't process complex decisions about danger and risk are just red herrings. If you're teaching on the kid's level, they will not be presented with any choices or opportunities to go astray.

We're not talking about handing a kid a handgun and asking them to wield it responsibly. We're talking about wrapping your arms around the little guy or girl and giving them an utterly safe welcome into the shooting world.

And, as I alluded to earlier, this isn't just for 4-year olds. Whatever age that introduction takes place, the same care should be exercised. Shooting a gun involves a very complex set of skills mingled with a pretty weighty set of physical and moral responsibilities. Whatever the instructor can do to isolate those factors and introduce one or two of them at a time will help the new shooter reach success much more easily.

-Sam

Sam1911, I can'd say I disagree with you except for this...

But concerns that the kids can't tell real life shooting from video games, or can't process complex decisions about danger and risk are just red herrings. If you're teaching on the kid's level, they will not be presented with any choices or opportunities to go astray.

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Kids encounter all kinds of choices. You teach your kids to fight in school? Happens all the time.... you think Dad taught the kid that it is okay to take that cool real 22 handgun to school?....

I tried to teach a 2nd grader to shoot a traditional spring powered BB gun... I had such a BB gun when I was in the 2nd grade. The kid couldn't even cock the gun and was not big enough to shoulder the little rifle. Figured I'd wait another year or two and try again, or when they bring it up.

If a kid wants to shoot a gun like Daddy, I certainly would not be an impediment to their shooting at age 4 or age 10. Yes, I would teach different for each. But holding a gun in your hands for a child and shooting is not really shooting other than when they pressed the trigger, it went bang. Why bother until they are a bit older unless they asked? They also are more likely to listen to you more carefully a bit older rather than taking a shot and going back to playing with their toy cars 10 minutes later.

Kids learn fast. You try to teach them right regardless of the topic. Have you had a kid remind you to put your seat belt on? I have. You teach them and they turn into little monsters. No not really, but it can be irratating at times.

I don't think young kids at age 4 or 5 can distinguish between a toy and a real gun. Kids will shoot each other with toys. I think it's natural. Add in real guns and you could have a problem until they really understand that these "toys" (Dad's Toys) can kill or the BB gun can shoot an eye out. They certainly don't understand death. Sometimes I wonder if I do either.

After I pickup a daisy I'll probably pull out a 30-30 and pop a jug or two or something to demonstrate this is a serious matter, and not must some toy play thing. It will be another fun adventure and knowing them I expect they'll start planning out for themselves different levels of yearly progression. "At 6 I'll do this, at 7 I'll do that, and at 8 I'll be old enough to shoot the 30-30 by myself" and then in recognition of reality add something like "but you can help me." Kids are great

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Yes, kids are great. They don't design hearing protection for 4 year olds, however. The in your ear kind are too large. The muffs are likely also too big. Your child will not likely be able to give you good feedback to determine if the muffs are properly set against his/her ears. Shooting off any type of center fire rifle near a child of this age is a very bad idea, imho. You'll very likely scare the kid off of guns when you set off a 30.30 next and then end up with either a huge fright or hearing damage.

My children are 12 & 9. We started with the four rules (stop, don't touch, leave the room, tell an adult) at about 5. We progressed to bb guns by eight. And I'm just now thinking about .22s with my 12 year old daughter. I have reservations about it as she's prone to tantrums. My 9 year old will be ready for .22s this year.

Just goes to show you that every kid is different.

Danbrew, sounds about like what I would do if they show the interest. We have a grand daughter who can't keep a thought in their head for more than 2 minutes. Guns and shooting, maybe under close supervision; VERY close. But she's in the 5th grade now and starting to show an interest. I'm going to teach her and her brother will probably want to learn too after he see's it is fun for her.

Added: On the 30-30 statement at age 8.... I was afraid to shoot my Dad's 30-30, 30-06, or shotguns until I was around 13 years old. I guess I didn't want to do something stupid in front of my Dad and was certainly afraid of the recoil that I heard about. I started hunting in the 9th grade, and that changed everything. I was big enough and mature enough to understand at that point.

Kids encounter all kinds of choices. You teach your kids to fight in school? Happens all the time.... you think Dad taught the kid that it is okay to take that cool real 22 handgun to school?....

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Uh, what? Teach the kids to fight? I don't think I see a connection, but maybe you could explain further.

If your kid has access to a real handgun so that they'd even have the ability to touch it without you present, let alone take it to school, you really don't need to be teaching ANYONE, ANYTHING about gun safety.

I believe I said that this kind of training seeks to strip away the possibility of a dangerous mistake so that the kid can concentrate on an enjoyable and educational experience. Projecting that out to the kid taking a handgun to school is a long stretch -- unless I've misunderstood you.

If a kid wants to shoot a gun like Daddy, I certainly would not be an impediment to their shooting at age 4 or age 10. Yes, I would teach different for each. But holding a gun in your hands for a child and shooting is not really shooting other than when they pressed the trigger, it went bang. Why bother until they are a bit older unless they asked?

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Is it shooting or just shooting? Who cares, if it's what the kid wants to do? I'd never push a kid that wasn't interested, and won't let a sesson carry on for one shot past the kid's attention span or enthuiasm. But if that kid is asking to go, I won't leave them home just because it isn't "REAL" shooting.

At 3 years old my daughter wanted to sit in my lap and pull the trigger of my AKM, over and over, 30 rounds at a time. Was that "REAL" shooting? I couldn't care less. She had a HUGE smile on her face and I did too.

They also are more likely to listen to you more carefully a bit older rather than taking a shot and going back to playing with their toy cars 10 minutes later.

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Sure. You have to tailor the experience and pare the message down to sound bites that the kid can process. If that's one shot and a simple, "never touch without Daddy," -- GREAT! If it assuages their curiosity for a month, or a year, and plants a safety seed, that's fine by me.

-Sam

IMO I agree with many other no handguns for 4 year olds a Red Ryder would the most safe and useful at this age.

If i had a 4 year old i wouldnt buy him his own firearm. There are airsoft guns out there, and co2 bb guns, that are externally very similar to adult handguns. You can get some with blowback action. A 4 year old might hurt himself with a BB gun even, unless you ONLY let them shoot it under strict supervision. For a real gun, if he's curious let him watch you shoot one of your pistols. Shoot it at some water jugs to show him it is not a toy to play around with. This is a critical age where they can learn one mistake with a real gun can get somebody killed. They could go to their friends house, thier friend might have found dad's 38 and they will be smart enough to leave and tell an adult.

I don't think young kids at age 4 or 5 can distinguish between a toy and a real gun.

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As a total aside to our conversation -- I call total BS on that one! I've watched such things carefully as we have weighed the decision about introducting the kids to toy guns, air guns, and real guns. A great many adults seem to feel that kids CAN'T discern the difference between play and real. It simply isn't true. Maybe it has something to do with their parents' attitudes and the messages they send both in words and actions, but kids pick up on a lot of subtleties we don't often understand ourselves. Now, I wouldn't state that a kid completely understands death, permanant injury, and responsibility for their actions, but they do understand pretend and real very well.

Kids will shoot each other with toys. I think it's natural. Add in real guns and you could have a problem until they really understand that these "toys" (Dad's Toys) can kill or the BB gun can shoot an eye out.

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Good lord! Who's "adding in" real guns into their kids' play? As I said before, if your young children have access to your firearms (and I'd say air guns, too) then you have SERIOUS problems with your own safety practices!

When we play, we're PLAYING. When we go to the range, play time is OVER. I think the strict firing line discipline, unwavering use of (kids' sized) eye and ear protection, and Daddy's very serious presentation of the safety message (over and over) helps them to understand this loud and clear. And seeing holes punched in metal cans, shattered clay birds, and other evidece of the damage real bullets can do creates a very healthy RESPECT in the kids for firearms and gun safety.

But, back to the subject of play, we have never allowed toy firearms in the house. (I grew up with them, but don't choose to go that route with my own kids.) My 4-year old does make guns out of sticks and things, and I doubt I could stop him if I tried. But he doesn't use them to shoot at people. He knows that Mommy and Daddy don't allow that kind of play and he abides by it. Now, he has been known to go out in public with a borrowed Fobus holster on his belt with one of his stick "pistols" secured in it. But he usually insists on wearing a cover garment!

-Sam

Uh, what? Teach the kids to fight? I don't think I see a connection, but maybe you could explain further.

If your kid has access to a real handgun so that they'd even have the ability to touch it without you present, let alone take it to school, you really don't need to be teaching ANYONE, ANYTHING about gun safety.

I believe I said that this kind of training seeks to strip away the possibility of a dangerous mistake so that the kid can concentrate on an enjoyable and educational experience. Projecting that out to the kid taking a handgun to school is a long stretch -- unless I've misunderstood you.

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The school statement and fighting is relative to kids learning from each other, not their parents although I know a number of parents who feel differently about the fighting part. kids do stuff because of other kids. What Dad says begins to not be as important to them. And no of course I don't think just because a child shoots any firearm, they will "take the gun to school" to show their classmates. But this relates to kids not really understanding toy versus real gun or are just a bad apple.


Sam, you live in a great area for shooting and enjoying the outdoor sports. Wish I was still there. Life changes.

I think we are on exactly the same wavelength without beating this to death. I'm a bit more protective. I won't beat on the AKM comment; I wouldn't do it or allow it. Makes the gun into a toy. Those are often the type of rifle they see on TV as "guns".

As far as loaded firearms around the house.... that is a tough one.... kids will figure out how to get in and touch those guns loaded or not. If you have young kids in the house, you need to take more stringent preventative measures as I'm sure you do. They need to understand what a firearm is and that if used improperly, it can kill or maim.

At age 4, everything is playing.

IMHO, this is the age appropriate pistol for a 4 year old....

take a little block of wood and nail 4" of old ruptured garden hose to it...

I don't know... maybe the two divergent points of view are more divergent than I thought.

IMO I agree with many other no handguns for 4 year olds a Red Ryder would the most safe and useful at this age.

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See, there's no way I'd give a 4-year old a Red Ryder BB-gun -- or an Airsoft. I'll assist them in shooting it if that's what they want to do, but when we're done, they have no access to it. It's a training tool, not a TOY.

take a little block of wood and nail 4" of old ruptured garden hose to it...

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In fact, I don't even provide such rudimentary toy "guns" to my kids. (Like I said, I've allowed stick guns, if not used to play-act violent or unsafe behavior.) I'll allow them to fire real guns, if they're interested, and with stringent safety precautions, but I don't want them even playing unsafe gun behavior with their toys, and both I and my wife are quite watchful for that.

To Dannix's question: Paintball is a tough subject. I do not really care for it as a toy/game, and I would prefer if the kids have a very healthy understanding of real firearms safety before they have any paintball experience. I do participate in occasional force-on-force training with various simulated (or altered) weapons and appreciate the value in that for an ADULT who is developing defensive skill sets and enters into the experience with a clear understanding of the exercise.

Most paintball games are so unrealistic as to be deviod of that kind of value.

I see very little good that can come from exposing kids to any of those things.

-Sam

Just to show how wide the variety of kids' capacities may be, I'll post a vid of Miko Andres.

If someone hadn't shot with this kid when he was 4, I doubt we'd see THIS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSYCQC4D7KU

(For those on dial up or unable to download the video, Miko is a 6-year old IPSC shooter who, in this vid, is shown navigating a 29-round field course with amazing control and capability. His pistol hangs to his knees in the holster, but he's more in-control and safety-conscious than some adults I've SO'd for!)

He certainly blows my kids' safety consciousness and gun handling skills out of the water, but he's obviously quite a prodigy.

-Sam

I go with the- do not touch - at 4 years old-but everyone has the right to teach his children as they see fit as long they do not endanger them.

I have been teaching my grandaughter to shoot and do not think a semi automatic pistol is a good choice, I would start with a single shot rifle, then a revolver

Sam, those videos of Mikos are quite incredible. Thank you for sharing!

Ultimately, I believe it's all a matter of the responsibility level of the child, and the teaching ability of the parent. I've let ten and twelve year old kids shoot some of my guns, but at the same time known people my own age who I wouldn't trust with an air pistol, let alone a real firearm.

Sam, those videos of Mikos are quite incredible. Thank you for sharing!

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Justin, that kid shakes the foundations of what I believed possible for a kid ... and my beliefs are pretty out there to begin with (apparantly).

-Sam

4 year old is about 10 years two young to shoot a handgun responsibly....... IMHO.......... especially an auto loader........

LIFE IS SHORT.....