Why did you stop carrying a 1911?

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In other words; stop using number of rounds as a determining factor. It isn't a factor
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A 0.0000001% Chance is still a chance that one may have 6-7 people attack at one time.

Would be nice to have 15-20 rounds in the magazine.

I can't say much, as my carry pistol only holds 7 also, but I wouldn't carry the 1911 because of weight, not capacity

But you saying that nobody needs more than that is just plain hooey. I don't have car insurance because I think I could get into a wreck.. I have car insurance because I *might*. I carry two mags in my pocket giving me 21 rounds total. It is fact that odds are I'll never have to fire one shot in self defense, but it *might* happen, and I want to be prepared.
 
After several years of IDPA competition, if something disrupted the routine draw scenario, like a stage that started from low ready, I still occasionally forgot to take off the thumb safety.

I've switched to a 5-shot DAO .357 snubby because:
- It's about 40% lighter; I'm not hitching up my belt near as much,
- It's much more reliable,
- It's totally 'point and shoot', i.e. fool-resistant.

(I got a 6-shooter for IDPA.)

And my crystal ball agrees with christcorp's: 5 rounds is enough. If I'm attacked by a gang that is determined enough to persist after I've put down three or four of them, then, sure, I'm out of luck. That doesn't worry me much.
 
But it never ceases to amaze me how many people are addicted to the thought that "More Bullets" equates to a better weapon. Stop living in hollywood movies. No, you're not going to be in a gunfight with drug gangs. You're not going to be in a self defense situation against 5-7 people. It's not going to happen.
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5-7 people? Maybe. Maybe not.
There is a thread posted today about someone who had to confront 3 guys who broke into his house. Is 5-7 rounds enough for that?
A family member of mine was mugged by 4 or 5 guys. Would 5-7 rounds be enough for that? If you don't have to shoot all of them, then yes, 5-7 rounds would probably be enough. But let's not fool ourselves. Predators often travel in packs.
 
And we all know we are ALL expert shots, and every bullet we shoot is a super duper man killer and just one round will destroy what we shoot, no matter where we hit them.

Its a totally different thing to shoot nice, tiny little groups at a static paper target at the range, than it is to shoot well under stress at targets that are most likely moving and trying to do to you, what you are attempting to do to them.

Personally, assuming I even prevail, I'd prefer to have rounds left over in the gun, no matter how many rounds needed to be fired, than to wind up just one short.
 
The crystal ball is very accurate. You should be choosing the weapon that is best for you. How it feels, how it shoots, how accurate it is, how well you can carry and/or conceal it, what you can afford new/used, weight, size, etc.... In other words, pick the best gun for you. If the best gun for you is a 6 shot Ruger 101 revolver, then that is the best gun. And anyone who says that isn't the right gun; for whatever reason; is wrong. If the best gun for you is a walther 32acp 7 shot; then that is the right gun. Same with a 8 shot 1911. Same with a 15 round 9mm SigSauer. Same with any gun.

When a person takes a gun off of their list of possible weapons to own/carry/etc... with the number of rounds being a major deciding factor, then the reason is obvious. It's not that more rounds is better; it that the person isn't confident or proficient enough to hit their target with 6-8 rounds. They anticipate a lot of missing. Sorry, if you believe that the number of rounds is a primary factor in choosing a gun, then you need to practice more. I have numerous guns that all have different capacities. Some for concealed carry, some for home use, some for carrying in winter with a lot of clothing, etc... I choose the guns that fit, feel, shoot, etc... best for me. If they happen to have 6 rounds, 7 rounds, or 15 rounds; that doesn't matter.

Of course, you can say that the number of rounds is indeed an important factor for you. That is your right. Buy whatever you want. I am here to simply tell the novice user who is looking at buying a gun; not to discount 50% of the guns available, because they have 5-7 rounds. Not because you believe that you are going to get into hollywood gunfights. You're not. And if you hit what you're aiming at, (You should NEVER pull the trigger unless you can hit what you are aiming at); then you definitely don't need 15 rounds. This is self defense. Not protecting a fortress. You will be shooting max or 20-30 feet. Anything further, and you should be running the other direction. If it's in my house, if a far enough distance of 40-50; I wouldn't be using a handgun anyway. It's a shotgun for home use. And if I get into a situation where it looks like there's a GANG war coming; then I will be leaving. This isn't hollywood.
 
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You're not a cop or military when you are potentially going to be up against numerous assailants. You're going to be up against 1; and possibly 2 at the most. And if you pull you gun; that alone is going to stop the threat 95% of the time. Firing ANY shots at all, are going to take care of another 4%. The final 1% will be where you have to actually shoot a person. And 7 rounds of a 45acp; 9mm; 32acp; etc... is more than enough.
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Sounds like very wishful thinking to me.

The fact is this:
During a shootout, on average, even the pros (cops, military, and federal agents) miss their target more often than they hit their target.
And very few people are stopped with merely one shot.

I carry a snub-nose 5-shot revolver most of the time.
But I'm not fooling myself either....I realize that I'm compromising easy carry and reliability for a less than idea capacity.
I don't mind carrying a 17 oz revolver for five shots....it's a fair compromise IMO.

The 1911 is a poor choice IMO because you tote around about 40 oz. for about seven shots.
The weight-to-bullet ratio just sucks in a 1911.
Heck, I could carry TWO revolvers and have 10 shots, and still be carrying less weight than a steel 5" loaded 1911.
 
easyg; don't compare yourself to what cops and military confront. You don't/won't confront anything similar. You will be involved with assailants. They will be in the 20-30 feet away mark. Police often will be returning fire from a criminal trying to escape. That person isn't trying to attack the police officer. They will hide behind door, dumpsters, etc... You are not going to be. If they are more than 30 feet away, you should be running the other direction. You're not going to be in a shootout. And the person trying to rob, mug, rape, etc... you; is not going to open fire on you because you've turned and starting running away. Even criminals rationalize their actions. They want something from you. Killing you is most normally an option after the fact. With police, it's the other way around. The criminal is actually acting in DEFENSE. They aren't trying to mug or rape a policeman.
 
Just on special occasions

Like when I am carrying my M66 when hunting (because I can pop dogs at 100 meters with my 357) or sleeping or taking a shower...
 
The crystal ball is very accurate.
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Actually, its not. All it does is distort what you see on the other side.

You should be choosing the weapon that is best for you. How it feels, how it shoots, how accurate it is, how well you can carry and/or conceal it, what you can afford new/used, weight, size, etc.... In other words, pick the best gun for you. If the best gun for you is a 6 shot Ruger 101 revolver, then that is the best gun. And anyone who says that isn't the right gun; for whatever reason; is wrong. If the best gun for you is a walther 32acp 7 shot; then that is the right gun. Same with a 8 shot 1911. Same with a 15 round 9mm SigSauer. Same with any gun.
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No argument there. But you still have to take into account any and all deficiencies in your choice, and live with them.

with the number of rounds being a major deciding factor, then the reason is obvious. It's not that more rounds is better; it that the person isn't confident or proficient enough to hit their target with 6-8 rounds. They anticipate a lot of missing.
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Ah, they old "spray and pray" theory, well played.

Its still total BS though. No one intends on missing, even the perfect shooters who use only 5 shot revolvers. Its that pesky live, moving and shooting back target, that absorbs those "perfect" hits and keeps on trying to kill you that gets in the way of perfect scores, and screws up the static target shooters theories. Even with wonder bullets, it might take a few more than you think, and no matter what you use, you shoot until the threat is down and out, not until you put a couple in the A zone.

You should NEVER pull the trigger unless you can hit what you are aiming at..
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Works well on the static range. Doesnt always work in the dynamic real world. As much as we like to believe we are great shots, and as much as we dont like to admit it, even great shots sometimes miss, and for no fault of their own.


The fact is this:
During a shootout, on average, even the pros (cops, military, and federal agents) miss their target more often than they hit their target.
And very few people are stopped with merely one shot.
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I see some do understand.

easyg; don't compare yourself to what cops and military confront. You don't/won't confront anything similar. You will be involved with assailants. They will be in the 20-30 feet away mark. Police often will be returning fire from a criminal trying to escape. That person isn't trying to attack the police officer. They will hide behind door, dumpsters, etc... You are not going to be. If they are more than 30 feet away, you should be running the other direction. You're not going to be in a shootout. And the person trying to rob, mug, rape, etc... you; is not going to open fire on you because you've turned and starting running away. Even criminals rationalize their actions. They want something from you. Killing you is most normally an option after the fact. With police, it's the other way around. The criminal is actually acting in DEFENSE. They aren't trying to mug or rape a policeman.
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What??

I read this three times and it still makes no sense.
 
Christcorp, I think you are oversimplifying a bit. I believe in proficiency with any firearm one intends to carry, and I also believe that the law of averages would say that most encounters tend to be against one to two assailants. Unfortunately, the operative term here is "most". What happens when your encounter is the exception to the rule?

Furthermore, I think you are a bit overconfident in your hardware and ability to use it. An attack on your person is a dynamic, terrifying, and fluid situation in which you are subject to massive dumps of adrenaline greatly impacting your perception and motor skills. To say that proficiency with your firearm of choice ensures clean hits defies the reality of a situation requiring deadly force. People have missed an attacker they were physically engaged with! There is no guarantee that all your rounds will hit their mark. In this regard, I believe it is you who have fallen into the Hollywood trap...

Additionally, you assume that each round you fire is a man stopping round. Don't be so sure. I have numerous friends in LE who would most assuredly tell you otherwise. Every round is spotty...even the .44 mag (one of my all time favorite rounds) has failed to produce stops. Again, Hollywood's magic bullet doesn't exist.

I believe it is better to be armed than not, and round count is certainly not the only factor when picking a carry gun, but it should be a factor.
 
Its certainly an important issue. You wouldn't carry a T/C break open as a defense pistol would you? The truth is the line is arbitrary and is one we all have to draw for ourselves. Some people feel they need no firearm and any is too many. Others carry something pushing a 20 round capacity with multiple spare mags pushing 100 rounds total. If you find 6 or 8 or 10 or 20 or 100 or even 0 rounds to be adequate that is a decision each person must make for themselves. I don't tend to find myself in areas or situations where I would need more than two mags full if things went completely south. If I am undergunned, well I have weighed my odds of being undergunned and can live with it for choice I have picked. There will always be a situation where we are overgunned, armed just right, and undergunned. You have to weigh what you think your odds of these situations presenting themselves would be along with what you are willing to prepare for or not. There is no right or wrong, its all arbitrary.
 
easyg; don't compare yourself to what cops and military confront. You don't/won't confront anything similar.
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This is just your opinion.
But the FACT is that no one knows what one might be confronted with on any given day.

I'm willing to bet that, on average, more civilians encounter multiple assailants than cops.

And while military personnel do encounter multiple assailants, those military personnel are seldom going in solo.
The civilian is typically on his own.

So who is worse off, a platoon of 50 soldiers engaging 100 enemy combatants, or a civilian engaging 2 murderers?

You will be involved with assailants. They will be in the 20-30 feet away mark.
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This is simply not true.
Most attacks upon civilians do not occur at 20-30 feet.

Police often will be returning fire from a criminal trying to escape. That person isn't trying to attack the police officer.
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Maybe, and maybe not.

They will hide behind door, dumpsters, etc... You are not going to be.
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Maybe, and maybe not.

If they are more than 30 feet away, you should be running the other direction.
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Sometimes this is simply not an option.

You're not going to be in a shootout.
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Maybe, and maybe not.

And the person trying to rob, mug, rape, etc... you; is not going to open fire on you because you've turned and starting running away. Even criminals rationalize their actions.
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FACT: criminals are unpredictable.
FACT: criminals often engage in irrational behavior.
If you really think that some criminals will not shoot a fleeing victim in the back then you are living in a fantasy world.

They want something from you. Killing you is most normally an option after the fact.
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"MOST NORMALLY"???
I guess we should all pray for "normal" criminals...you know, the ones that don't have behavioral disorders and the ones not on drugs.
:rolleyes:
 
I very much agree with christcorp. We do not live in Melgibsonland. If I have to fire 15+ bullets without reloading, it is obvious that I am trying to make my pistol do a rifle's job, and that I'm probably in trouble no matter what pistol I have.

Even if you carry a gun with more capacity than 8+1, you still need to train and plan it malfunctioning. You reload when you CAN, not when you HAVE to. Learn the el Presidente drill. I carried Glocks, Berettas, Sig P-226, Sigma, etc, BEFORE I really started learning pistolcraft. I haven't carried a pistol with a higher capacity than 8+1 in over nine years and I have never felt more confident in my skills or equipment.
 
I started with a 1911 and went to progressively lighter handguns. I got all the way down to an airweight snubby.

Small and light is so easy to carry. And the truth is I have never pulled my carry gun ever and thats in about 20 years of carry.

I think my Colt was three pounds loaded. Just a hassle to carry.
 
Still carry mine

Springfield TRP is my primary and sometimes I carry my Colt. Hell sometimes I carry both...

I have an XD fits good and all IWB all with Milt Sparks but really its the mags. The mags on the double stack stick out like a sore thumb. I always carry a few extra mags so to the 1911 it goes.
 
Agency gun changed

When my agency went to a standard gun, I changed my choices as well.

I carried a GLOCK, so a 1911 was not a big change for a home gun. Then my agency standardized on the BERETTA 96d Brigadier, a double action only pistol in .40 S&W.
I found the BERETTA to recoil about the same, have 50 percent more rounds with a really great doa trigger. The BERETTA was FAR more accurate than the run of the mill 1911 and more reliable in my experience.

Since then, I have stuck with the BERETTA for a house and car gun and sometimes carry gun. My agency went to the H&K P2000, so I am still shooting double action only and am used to it.

Also, I recently bought a BERETTA 96d Vertec model and the handling has improved my shooting slightly. I will add a 15 round magazine and rail light to make my perfect house gun.

Jim
 
Christcorp, et al.

I submit that it's not at all the odds one should worry about, but the stakes involved. Beyond that get whatever legitimate training and tools you feel are necessary precautions.
 
And if you hit what you're aiming at, (You should NEVER pull the trigger unless you can hit what you are aiming at)
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Sounds great, unless you've been injured or you're running and ducking for cover.

You have no idea what sort of circumstances someone may have to face in a gunfight. Every situation is different and the weapon you choose should be able to handle as many different threat scenarios as possible.

Carrying a concealed weapon means taking into account a realistic threat assessment, the reliability of your weapon, your proficency with it, and your ability and willingness to conceal the weapon you choose.

Why would you carry a gun expecting an unobstructed frontal chest shot on a stationary, lone target within the range you normally practice at on the range? In that case, a snubnose 6 shot .22 revolver would be ideal.

But like it or not, multiple attackers DO happen. Active shooters in the workplace, office or even in a church DO occur.

When something like that happens, you will probably miss some of your shots. Not because you're a bad shot, but because you're scared and the lead seems to be coming straight for you. You MAY have to shoot out of or into a vehicle or through barriers. The bad guy(s) may not drop with a few shots center mass. You MAY have to fire at an extended range.

People get caught up in these events with increasing regularity. None of us are immune from them. And you can't always just run away or go grab a rifle. You may have to fight or die.

You will go to war with what you have on you at the time, and it is better to factor in the "worst case scenario" in your choice of sidearm instead of the usual statistcally correct shooting.
 
First, why I no longer carry a 1911: Weight. Too much on my hip and way too much out of my wallet. I don't like beavertails, so Kimbers and such are out. I don't want a clone, so that leaves me with a thousand-dollar Colt and, for the same money or much less, there are better pistols out there. Heresy, I know, but it's a fact. My full-size automatics are a Beretta PX4 Storm and a FN-Herstal FNP-9. They are both better SD weapons than the M1911 and the combined prices I paid for them would barely get me into a Series 70 Government Model, which is what I used to carry.

In reality, when venturing out these days, my CCW is usually either a .380 auto or a couple of Smith & Wesson J-frames. The big nines are for those few cooler months when a coat isn't out of place in Southeast Texas.

Second, in regards to potential SHTF situations, if you're up against more than a couple of attackers, it doesn't really matter how many bullets you've got unless you have machine gun to go with them. If you don't have good cover, an armed buddy, or a quick exit, you're probably hosed and the best you can hope for is paying the ferryman's fee before you go down. MAYBE if you're Jerry Miculek, Bill Jordan or Charlie Askins, you'll still be standing but there's not an oddsmaker in Vegas who'll take your side in a bet.

That being said, I do try to err on the side of being over-prepared. Even if I am just carrying one of my little Smith snubbies, I have an HKS Speedloader in a pocket. But then I also used to carry a couple of spare magazines when I was packing my old Mark IV, Series 70.
 
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