cc mindset question

I think that you rethink that statement.... Instead, the proper mindset is:

1. Avoid, escape, de-escalate.....whenever possible.
2. You draw your weapon only if there is grave imminent danger.
3. You shoot to stop the attack. (If the bad guy dies in the process...that's his fault and simply a consequence of his bad choice to attack you.) Killing the bad guy is not our goal. Stopping the attack is the goal......even if it means killing the bad guy.

We must have the mindset of being willing to use up to lethal force to stop the bad guy. I think that is what most THR readers have in mind. And if one does not have to stomach to carry out lethal force when necessary, then one should not carry a gun. We don't pull out the weapon "just to scare the bad guy". One must have the willingness to actually use that lethal force.....and that is the ultimate deterrent. And I think that bad guys can sense if that willingness is there. Again, we only shoot to stop the BG (but we must have the guts to do that even it means using lethal force.) If you can escape...then try that first..before resorting to something that can't be undone.

Make sense?

Justification/ NH law

NH's take on it from the legal standpoint......

TITLE LXII
CRIMINAL CODE
CHAPTER 627
JUSTIFICATION
Section 627:4
627:4 Physical Force in Defense of a Person. –
I. A person is justified in using non-deadly force upon another person in order to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful, non-deadly force by such other person, and he may use a degree of such force which he reasonably believes to be necessary for such purpose. However, such force is not justifiable if:
(a) With a purpose to cause physical harm to another person, he provoked the use of unlawful, non-deadly force by such other person; or
(b) He was the initial aggressor, unless after such aggression he withdraws from the encounter and effectively communicates to such other person his intent to do so, but the latter notwithstanding continues the use or threat of unlawful, non-deadly force; or
(c) The force involved was the product of a combat by agreement not authorized by law.
II. A person is justified in using deadly force upon another person when he reasonably believes that such other person:
(a) Is about to use unlawful, deadly force against the actor or a third person;
(b) Is likely to use any unlawful force against a person present while committing or attempting to commit a burglary;
(c) Is committing or about to commit kidnapping or a forcible sex offense; or
(d) Is likely to use any unlawful force in the commission of a felony against the actor within such actor's dwelling or its curtilage.
III. A person is not justified in using deadly force on another to defend himself or a third person from deadly force by the other if he knows that he and the third person can, with complete safety:
(a) Retreat from the encounter, except that he is not required to retreat if he is within his dwelling or its curtilage and was not the initial aggressor; or
(b) Surrender property to a person asserting a claim of right thereto; or
(c) Comply with a demand that he abstain from performing an act which he is not obliged to perform; nor is the use of deadly force justifiable when, with the purpose of causing death or serious bodily harm, the actor has provoked the use of force against himself in the same encounter.
(d) If he is a law enforcement officer or a private person assisting him at his direction and was acting pursuant to RSA 627:5, he need not retreat.
Source. 1971, 518:1. 1981, 347:1, 2, eff. Aug. 16, 1981.

(a) Retreat from the encounter, except that he is not required to retreat if he is within his dwelling or its curtilage and was not the initial aggressor;

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curtilage? new word for me....not in my websters.....ahhh, wiki says:

In law, curtilage is the enclosed area of land around a dwelling.[1] It is distinct from the dwelling by virtue of lacking a roof, but distinct from the area outside the enclosure in that it is enclosed within a wall or barrier of some sort.

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Make sense?

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Perfectly : TheProf , said it as good as anyone can. +1

In reference to the posting of the legal code: Remember that laws vary by state as to the justification of lethal force. One of the responsibilities of carrying and use of a firearm in SD or HD is knowing the legal responsibilities you have in the jurisdiction you are carrying in. Something to be very aware of when traveling to another state that honors your state's CC permit.

I wouldn't say it's a general mind set, it's just something you need to remember. Because if you do shoot and kill, you need to be justified beyond reasonable doubt. Lethal force is only justified if you genuinely feared for your life, the life of another person, in which case the use of lethal force was needed to prevent the iminent severe injurey or death of one or more persons. In some cases it is even justifiable if the immediate threat of violence is implied or beleived to happen with a short amount of time. As in if you witness one crime that has happened, and the person is going to commit the same or similar crime again and cause the injury or death of another person. There are variations to this, but still in the same probabilities.
But there are numerous threads on this type of situation. Pulling a weapon unnecessarily can lead to "brandishing" and such charges against you.

Mindset to me means more than having just one "if-then" decision set in place. I think Cooper's little book is still the best introduction to the subject that's available- see http://www.paladin-press.com/product/772/Other_Combat_Shooting . I'd strongly suggest buying a copy if you don't have one already. It's available from other places, but Paladin published it first way back when and IMHO they deserve your business.

YMMV of course,

lpl

I seem to have "don't draw unless you intend to kill" burned into my brain.

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How about don't draw unless you are prepared to neutralize the threat(s)? This may mean shooting until such time you deem the threat no longer exists. A poll taken on THR in '09 showed that overwhelmingly most of us shoot to stop the attack, not kill an attacker.

However, sometimes the mere display of the firearm will convince someone to find a new victim, but the point is if you are drawing your weapon because you are in grave danger you should be ready to use it.

What you don't want to have happen is that you become the bad guy by brandishing every time the opportunity presents itself.

Hope this helps.

DFW1911

While I agree that you should burn "Shoot to stop" into your brain, I also understand that you are asking when it is appropriate to draw, if ever.

A couple of weeks ago we got into it in here, arguing ad nauseum about whether or not it is ok to draw your gun to threaten or scare the threat away. The answer is an overwhelming NO, but some guys wouldn't hear it. Your gun is not a tool to negotiate or intimidate. If you draw your gun BEFORE you intend to use it, you will be standing there with a gun in your hand deciding what to do while the world ends around you. If you survive, your lawyer will have to explain to the D.A. why it was necessary to draw at all if you weren't sure your life was in immediate danger.

When you draw, talking time is over. Now don't misunderstand. This doesn't mean that just because you draw you HAVE to shoot somebody. Most armed encounters end without shots fired. You will likely draw and the bad guy will run away because you have a gun, and you would no longer be allowed to shoot him. But you don't draw with that plan in mind.

The thing to remember is that a family member or friend is most likely to be your average attempted murderer. Most murders ate comitted by aquaintances so be prepared to shoot your mother, father, brother, sister, son, or daughter when that moment of truth may come.

I seem to have "don't draw unless you intend to kill"

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I have the mindset that if I am forced to draw my weapon, I intend to stop the threat as forcibly as needed as quickly as possible. I am commited to taking actions to protect myself and my loved ones may result in my killing the attacker. I have prepared myself to accept that the death of the attacker is a possible outcome of the encounter.

When I am hunting, I shoot to kill and persue my quarry with that sole purpose and intent. When I am carrying my CCW, I do so with the intent to preserve myself and the people that I care about. The survival or death of the attacker is secondary and of little real importance. All I care about is that they immediately cease in their aggression.

When it comes down to them or me all I know is that I still want to see what will happen tommorrow.

I draw, I fire, I am not so good that i can put one or four in a leg. Always certain of mass.
If they surrender and comply with my instructions till LEO's arrive I will not fire.

Dependng on how quickly the situation unfolds & how motivated the attackers are they may figure out what you're doing & start running the other way. At that point there is no threat & no need to shoot. I seriously doubt that most of the "If I pull my gun I'm shooting" crowd are so fast that the attacker wouldn't recognize what's happening. In the grand scheme of an attack, even 1.5 seconds (a fast draw from a closed-front concealment garment) can provide more than enough time for someone to decide their initial attack needs to be aborted.

There's a big difference between being prepared to kill someone (actually willing & able to pull the trigger, dealing with the immediate & long term legal, moral & emotional issues, etc) & "shooting to kill." The former is you facing up to the realities of shooting someone. The other is a good way to get yourself some extra legal attention if the wrong people get wind of that statement.

When you draw, talking time is over. Now don't misunderstand. This doesn't mean that just because you draw you HAVE to shoot somebody

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Right. You don't draw until you are ready to use your gun. You don't draw to brandish. Think of it from the other person's point of view: the moment you draw, you are threatening to kill them. That's usually too much force. Many if not most police officers go through an entire career without shooting at anyone.

Lee Lapin said:

Mindset to me means more than having just one "if-then" decision set in place. I think Cooper's little book is still the best introduction to the subject that's available- see http://www.paladin-press.com/product/772/Other_Combat_Shooting . I'd strongly suggest buying a copy if you don't have one already. It's available from other places, but Paladin published it first way back when and IMHO they deserve your business.

YMMV of course,

lpl

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I'm seriously thinking about ordering bulk copies of that book and including them as take-away material for my carry classes. It should be required reading for anyone who carries a gun.

-Mark

Maybe if enough people asked, Paladin would offer it in bulk/multiple copies at a reduced price. I think I'll give 'em a call tomorrow and see what they say.

lpl

Jeff Cooper's writings have influenced my thinking more than anyone elses. The proper mindset is to avoid conflict by being mentally prepared and aware of your surroundings. Learn the color code, stick to it and it's possible you will avoid ever being in the situation that you have to draw your gun.

I called Paladin this morning- seems the only price breaks they have are wholesale prices for retailers who are re-selling the material. They don't have any provisions for bulk sales of their materials at reduced prices- just wholesale.

Even so, retail on Coopers little book is just $14- not much of a budget buster even at full retail, and more than worth it IMHO. http://www.paladin-press.com/product/772/Other_Combat_Shooting

fwiw,

lpl