Loading 9mm for XD9, COL ?

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TonyAngel

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Hey guys,

I've recently discovered Missouri Bullet Company and like what I've seen so far. Since I just got a new 9mm, I ordered some 125gr smallball for it. With the projectiles that I used to use and my other 9mm's, I used to just seat to a COL of 1.1", so I just did that and loaded up a batch.

Well, I decided to check the rounds in the chamber of the XD9 and they won't quite just drop in. They take a little push and when I go to pull them out, I kind of have to pry them a little bit with my finger nail to get them out. They won't just fall out. I'm worried that this might result in an over pressure situation.

I double checked my crimp and all is good, so I started messing with the bullet seating depth. I can get the rounds to drop free, but not until I get down to a COL of about 1.07". This is kind of short and it worries me that it might affect the reliability of my pistol.

Has anyone else had this problem loading smallball for an XD9? What COLs are you guys using?

BTW, when I pry the rounds from the chamber, I can see a shiny ring around the projectile where it is binding, but the bullet isn't deformed as though it had engaged the rifling, but it might just be hard to tell because of the polygonal rifling. I don't know.

I'd be grateful for any info.

Thanks,
Tony
 
Full disclosure, I'm a relative newbie to reloading and the workup I did for 9mm was my first, but the biggest problem I had with that workup was the COL issue. Below is a link to the discussion here that I started about it:
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=485712&page=2

That said, I don't know anything about the smallball but when I started loading 124gr JHP for my XD (and other guns) this past November, I had to reduce my COL to a maximum of 1.080 in order to get it to function. Two of my 9mm's, including my XD, were particularly picky about the COL issue, anything over 1.080 would fail to feed. I'm now consistently loading to 1.075" COL and haven't had any problems since changing to that length. I've loaded and shot just under 1000 rounds since December, about 50% of that through the XD, and haven't had a single problem. That said, I'm shooting a pretty light load with just 3.8gr of Bullseye, so I have little worry of going over pressure. Hope this helps.
 
I load berry's plated bullets in my XD9 and for 115gr and 124gr I've used OAL's ranging from 1.100 to 1.140 and haven't had a single feeding issue.
 
w00dc4ip, are you saying that with a COL of over 1.080 they wouldn't feed or wouldn't chamber? I just tried some rounds that I loaded using Berry's 124gr hollow points. COL on those was 1.1 and I loaded those for my Kahr K9. They feed and function perfectly in the Kahr, but I just found that they will not chamber in the XD. Apparently, Lucky Strike is not having any problems with the Berry's loaded out to 1.1". It looks like there are some varying tolerances afoot.

It's a real shame that I haven't fired a single round from this XD yet and I'm already wishing that I had gotten the Sig. I've never had this sort of trouble loading ammo for any other handgun. What really had me stumped is that all of the rounds that I loaded dropped right into my Dillon case gauge.
 
Would you guys read the post before throwing in your 2 cents.Tony is loading a LEAD bullet,not your standard PLATED bullet.The same rules don't apply.
Tony,you need to find the exact reason they don't camber.Is the bullet hitting the lead of the camber edge,or is the case not being down sized enough to fully seat in the camber.There is also more help with cast bullets on castboolits.com.Use a majic market to mark a Dummy round(your gonna need lots,just ask me how I know this)and try a light tap to see were the markings are.
 
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TonyAngel,

I have the same gun and the same bullet and I also had the exact same issue. It sounds like we did the exact same trouble shooting as well. I found that the bullets would drop in and come out easily at 1.080". So I loaded 90 rounds to 1.075" for a bit of leeway. I had one in that 90 that stuck a bit. So the next batch I loaded 50 to 1.069".

I think you'll be just fine at 1.070" with that bullet in your XD. The rounds should feed just fine and still be safe as long as you start at the starting load and work up.

Here's my thread discussing the same issue:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=494287&highlight=9mm+Universal+missouri+bullet
 
Tony,
Sorry about the confusion, the initial rounds I built would fail to chamber. The rounds I built would feed but then stick (I'm assuming because they reached the rifling) out of the chamber a little and keep the slide from returning completely forward. When they did slam all the way in they stuck and jammed. On the advice of people on this board, I tried the drop in test and that's where I eventually came to the 1.080" length. The Berry's plated rounds I'm using are JHP, which may be why Lucky Strike's 124gr are working at 1.1 and mine aren't. I've also heard recently that there may be a difference between the XD and the XDm, not sure if there really is an issue there or not but mine's an XD.

As for the buyer's remorse regarding the Sig, my Sig P6 is the other of my 9mm's that was picky about the COL issue, so even if you had bought a Sig rather than the XD you may have experienced the same issue. Not sure what Sig you were looking at but that was my experience, which is all I can really talk about.

Finally, when I got a case gauge in January I tested the initial dummy rounds I had built in November that wouldn't chamber in the XD. They dropped right in with no problem.
 
OK, I took one of my Berry's plated rounds and one of my lead rounds and marked them with a Sharpie. When seated to 1.1" COL, the projectile will not enter the lead portion of the barrel between the chamber and the rifling. None of the bearing surface of the projectile will enter the lead portion of the barrel.

At first, I was going to attribute this to the fact that the XD employs polygonal rifling, but my Kahr does too, and I'm not having any problems with the Kahr. I suppose that this is one of those cases of it being what it is. I'm going to have to seat short for the XD. It just seems to me that I shouldn't have to. I think I'm going to have to slug the barrel. My XD might be on the tight side of acceptable tolerances for a 9mm.

I'm thinking that I might try the Dardas 125 gr. round nose. From the pics it appears to be a different nose profile with the bearing surface starting much lower on the projectile.

azar, thanks for the link. I was looking for that and couldn't find it.
 
Way too complicated

TonyAngel:

Because chambers have variations, every gun/barrel/bullet combination will require a different OAL.

It's not that complicated, what good is a gage if a round still will not chamber in your gun's barrel?

The gun's BARREL is the gage AND can be used to determine the maximum OAL with ANY given bullet.
This OAL can be quickly and accurately determined using a dial or digital caliper, the barrel, and THE BULLET in question.
Don't look for exact OAL for YOUR gun in any book or someone elses post.
Once you load to this OAL, if it will not chamber, the OAL is not the problem.

My personal experience with this VARY SAME Bullet is, in a "tight" chamber, it may not fully chamber because of variations of BULLET diameter.
To remedy this I simply push the bullets through a .356 diameter Lee Sizing Die ($15).
If that doesn't work for you get a .355 Sizing die.
For MY GUN with this bullet at .356 diameter, OAL = 1.088.

No one I know removes a barrel and checks factory ammo in it for chambering.
Most just load the magazine, drop the slide, and pull the trigger.
Remember, the slide is slamming that round into the chamber.
Now, if experiencing many FTF (fail to FIRE) I would certainly investigate.

I commend your for being cautous.
It can be frustrating, but I load for better performance in my gun and it takes extra detail.
But it's worth it when groups shrink from fist size to thumb size.

Don't listen to the shorter equals extreme pressure crowd.
Once you dertermine the OAL, start with powder charges at the starting load and watch for pressure signs...you won't see any.

Most who boast of at or above max loads usually cannot hit anything and take delight is excessive recoil, muzzle blast, and posting pics of their KBs.

Tilos
 
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Tony -
It's exactly as I said in the other thread. The Springfield XD's seem to have the same issues as the CZ's I deal with... a short leade European chamber.

A Berry plated bullet at .355" dia is going to give completely different "data" from a .356 dia Missouri Bullet. For one, they have different diameters. Secondly, they have different formula curves on the ogive of the bullet's nose.

Using the bullet as a gauge is the best way I know of, because it gives direct data on using that bullet in that barrel. BUT the information collected may or may not apply to another bullet or another gun. Murphy's Law predicts with almost 100% certainty that it does not. So for every new bullet you're going to need to collect this data again. In some respects it is a pain, but on the other hand it gives you incredibly accurate ammo when you start working WITH the gun.

You're going to have this exact same issue with any bullet that brings the full diameter out in front of the case mouth, such as conical nose FP and HP (Hornady HAP and XTP for instance). The graphic below shows the problem area on my CZ. Your issue is very similar, if not exactly the same.

Rifling%20Depth.png


If you'll do the black marker bit again, this time on the nose of the bullet, slip it into your chamber until it stops, then twist it back and forth, it will be VERY easy to see where the problem area is.

Hope this helps!
 
Walkalong wrote, "Sometimes the simplest things are the hardest things"

Walkalong:

It looks like you will need to get out your digital camera again for this one.

Tilos
 
Nah. rfwobbly posted a perfectly good illustration. :D

The rounds I built would feed but then stick (I'm assuming because they reached the rifling) out of the chamber a little and keep the slide from returning completely forward. When they did slam all the way in they stuck and jammed.
Click to expand...
Sounds like all you have to do is shorten the O.A.L. until they chamber, by following all the good advise posted thus far by others.

I have a tight chambered EMP, and all brass must be gauged before loading. It it won't pass the gauge, it will do exactly as you described. Lock it up.

Either your O.A.L. is too long, your rounds are too fat somewhere, or your chamber is below SAMMI spec, but you said they pass the gauge, so......
 
I just find it a bit aggravating in that I now have to go back and reinvent the wheel with my 9mm. I'm not a really big fan of 9mm, but I do have the Kahr, now the XD9 and an AR in 9mm. Because of the XD I now have to work a load up again and hope that it runs in my other 9mm's. Whether you agree with me or not, I'd rather get rid of the XD than to have to keep two different supplies of 9mm reloads just because of the XD.

I thank you guys for all of the info. Some of it confirmed my suspicions and I learned a couple of new things as well. My reason for getting the XD is kind of stupid, in that, while I was out at the range, the guy standing next to me couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with his new XD. He asked me to give it a try to see if it was him or the gun. As soon as it hit my hand, it reminded me of a cross between a 1911 and a Browning High Power. I was scary accurate with the thing. After shooting it, I said, "man, I've got to get one of these." Well, here we are.

Thanks again,
Tony
 
Tony -
I completely sympathize, brother. At first it was aggravating to me too, but then when I studied up and learned what we're all telling you, my ammo and gun got super accurate. Then I was really glad I hadn't done something stupid like sell the gun or modify the chamber.

Here's a sure-fire way you can deal with this: Sell the Missouri lead bullets and buy some Berry 125gr RN. The taper is different just enough to where the issue will completely go away. You'll probably find that you can load the Berry's out to the max of 1.169" without any issues.

Here's the way I look at it: If you want an accurate gun, the rifling has got to come in closer to the chamber. If the rifling comes in closer, then there are simply SOME bullets you will never be able to shoot without a greatly reduced OAL.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

All the best!
 
I had to reinvent 9MM after getting my EMP. Previously my occasional fat 9MM reload would get devoured by my other 9MM chambers. No worries at all, but that changed when I got the EMP. Two choices. Reinvent my 9MM load prep for all my loading, or just for the ones to shoot in the EMP. Well heck, if I have to do some, I might as well do them all so they will fit in anything. I bought a case gauge, after loading 9MM for many years without one, and started gauged every single piece of sized brass. Now I know my reloads will fit anything, even tight chambered guns. They also work in my Firedragon 9MM conversion barrel for my XD SC. Maybe it's rifling is farther out than the stock XD 9MM barrel. Dunno.

My 125 Gr lead 9MM bullets are Magnus. Don't know how they compare to yours.
 
Yeah, I think I'm going to try a different projectile. It's kind of a shame because I really like the bullets from Missouri Bullet Company. I have had zero leading issues with them. As I mentioned above, I did check out the 125gr projectiles from Dardas and they appear to have a different taper, in that the bearing surface appears (from the pics) to begin at a much lower point on the projectile.

I'll look at the Berry's, but think that they are going to almost defeat the purpose of reloading, cost wise. When my son and I go out to the range every other week or so, we blow through at least a couple thousand rounds.

I have two hundred of these 9mm loaded with the MBC projectiles and they are seated to 1.1" COL. What do you guys think of running them though the press again to seat them a bit deeper? Say 1.07" COL. At that depth, I don't get any sticking at all. I loaded them with 5.6gr of AA No. 5, so I don't think that I'm going to run into any over pressure issues just seating them .025" deeper.

On a last note, how much of a pressure problem do you think it will cause if I just shoot them the way they are? They feed and chamber as they should. The just stick a little when trying to extract them. I did the thing with the marker and it is definitely sticking in the barrel lead between the chamber and the rifling.

Sorry for all of the questions, I've just never had to deal with this before.
 
At first, I was going to attribute this to the fact that the XD employs polygonal rifling, but my Kahr does too, and I'm not having any problems with the Kahr.
Click to expand...

The XD does not use polygonal rifling. It uses traditional lands and grooves.
 
What do you guys think of running them though the press again to seat them a bit deeper? Say 1.07" COL. At that depth, I don't get any sticking at all. I loaded them with 5.6gr of AA No. 5,
Click to expand...
I would use my barrel and keep shortening them until they chamber, assuming it doesn't get ridiculously short, and try them out. 5.6 Grs is light enough that you should be good, but it wouldn't hurt to back it down to 5.4 and work up with your new shorter O.A.L..
 
At 1.07", I'm not getting any sticking at all, but the rounds sure to look funny. They kind of look like .380 rounds.

I'm gonna stop by the indoor range (yuck!!) on my way home from the office and try a couple of things out.

Thanks for all of the help.
 
That definitely a short O.A.L. for a RN 9MM bullet, but if that is what it takes for that bullet in that gun, you will have to live with it or change bullets.

That bullet looks like it has a lot of bearing surface, which can only be good for accuracy, but I can see where it would get into the lands on a short throated barrel.

No reason at all it should not work great loaded at that O.A.L., assuming it feeds, and you adjust for it powder wise.

Smallball .........Pic "borrowed" from MBC
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Yep.

That bullet style with the "step" are the bullets I am used to seeing, and shooting, in 9MM. They would be much more forgiving of a short throat. They just might work in Tony's barrel. They have a much shorter bearing surface, and may not be as accurate. Only way to find out is try.

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