Barrel Heating Question???

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Randy1911

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I have pondered this question for a long time and not really came up with a good answer.:banghead: What exactly is it that makes a barrel hot when you fire a gun? I mean is it the friction of the bullet going down the barrel? Or is it the burning powder? Maybe a combination? I have noticed that when cleaning a barrel, running the bore brush up and down the barrel makes it a little warm. Does anyone know for sure? Thanks for your answers. Inquireing minds want to know.:D
 
Sorry, unless you have a machine doing your barrel cleaning, there is no way you are heating the barrel to where you can feel it by running a bore brush back and forth.

I've cleaned everything from a .22lr pistol up to and beyond a 7.62 M60 machinegun.
 
What exactly is it that makes a barrel hot when you fire a gun? I mean is it the friction of the bullet going down the barrel? Or is it the burning powder? Maybe a combination?

Yes.
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What, you wanted more?
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Well, that's all I've got--now go away! ;) I'm sure it's a combination of the two.

I have noticed that when cleaning a barrel, running the bore brush up and down the barrel makes it a little warm. Does anyone know for sure? Thanks for your answers. Inquireing minds want to know.:D

You'd have to scrub it pretty vigorously to make it warm that way. Just handling it would do the same thing, I would think.
 
Repeated firing. All of which is the powder. You're lighting a very hot fire in a small space. The bullet isn't in the barrel long enough to add much friction heat. Bullets do get 'cursing' hot from barrel and air friction though.
"...running the bore brush up and down the barrel makes it a little warm..." Um, no.
 
The barrel I am talking about is a 1911 barrel. It isn't very thick and I scrub it with a tight 45 brush. It doesn't get hot, just enough of a tempeture change that I can notice it. Sorry I asked.
 
its most likely to get warm through thermal heat transfer of youre hand that the actual friction of the brush
 
SlamFire1 said:
Take a look at this page for a modern analysis of the energy and heat transfer involved in a rifle cartridge.

http://www.z-hat.com/Efficiency of...300 Hawk.htm
Wow, that's pretty interesting. Only about 32% of the energy of the powder is actually pushing the bullet. I knew there was loss, but I didn't realize it was that much.

So to the OP's question, bullet/barrel friction only accounts for about 2% and heat transferred from the burning powder to the barrel is about 30% (almost as much energy as used to move the bullet!). Am I reading this right?

What is happening to the remaining 34% in hot gasses? Is it dissipated in the atmosphere after the bullet leaves the bore?

Mechanical energy

Projectile motion 32%

Barrel friction 2%

Thermal energy

Hot gases 34%

Barrel heat 30%

Chemical energy

Unburned propellant 1%
 
Even discounting the burning propellant, there is bound to be considerable friction generated. You will see this especially in "high-powered" rifles, which accelerate a bullet (that fits tightly in the bore to start with) from a standing start to ~3000 fps in a couple of feet of barrel.
 
Well, Chem 324, 325 (physical chemistry for chemical engineering at ISU) I completed in '85 makes me think that the gas pressure developed results in most of the heat generated. Just like a diesel engine creates heat to explode oil through compression. A chemical reaction (gunpowder to nitrogen gas, other products and some heat) produces many times the volume of gas than the initial solid. The very high pressure causes the gas to be quite hot. The reaction is driven by the stability of the nitrogen gas as a reaction product. The diatomic N-N bond is at a low energy state and is what drives nitrogen based propellants and explosives. The increase in entropy also drives the reaction, along with intermolecular strain of the NO2 functional groups.
 
Randy1911 said:
The barrel I am talking about is a 1911 barrel. It isn't very thick and I scrub it with a tight 45 brush. It doesn't get hot, just enough of a tempeture change that I can notice it. Sorry I asked.
opie4386 said:
its most likely to get warm through thermal heat transfer of youre hand that the actual friction of the brush
I believer Opie has it right. I've noticed this as well. Just holding a handgun barrel tightly in your hand will warm it considerably.
 
Even discounting the burning propellant, there is bound to be considerable friction generated. You will see this especially in "high-powered" rifles, which accelerate a bullet (that fits tightly in the bore to start with) from a standing start to ~3000 fps in a couple of feet of barrel.
You would think, but according to Chuck Hawks, that does not appear to be the case. It's just 2% of energy lost.

Well, Chem 324, 325 (physical chemistry for chemical engineering at ISU) I completed in '85 makes me think that the gas pressure developed results in most of the heat generated. Just like a diesel engine creates heat to explode oil through compression. A chemical reaction (gunpowder to nitrogen gas, other products and some heat) produces many times the volume of gas than the initial solid. The very high pressure causes the gas to be quite hot. The reaction is driven by the stability of the nitrogen gas as a reaction product. The diatomic N-N bond is at a low energy state and is what drives nitrogen based propellants and explosives. The increase in entropy also drives the reaction, along with intermolecular strain of the NO2 functional groups.
That explains what is creating the heat, but not where it is going.
 
I'm not sure if this answers the question, but it's interesting:
A pound of single-base rifle powder has an energy content of about 1,246,000 ft-lbs of energy or about 178 ft-lbs per grain of powder. In actual practice only a fraction of this energy is available to accelerate the bullet. Julian Hatcher in HATCHER'S NOTEBOOK reported the energy distribution for the Browning Machine Rifle as follows:

Heat to cartridge case 4%

Kinetic energy to bullet 29%

Kinetic energy to gases 19%

Heat to barrel 22%

Heat to gases 19%

Heat to bullet friction 7%

http://www.loadammo.com/whatisballistics.htm

The 22% "heat the barrel" isn't broken down into hot gas vs. friction. If 7% of energy is heating the bullet by friction, is the same amount of friction heat going into the barrel? Would it be less because steel doesn't conduct heat as well as gilding metal?
 
I think most of the barrel heat is transfered from the hot gas produced. Are you going to make me go and estimate how hot the gas gets the instant of firing? Thousand degrees? It's amazing how there's always more happening that one realizes.
 
Are you going to make me go and estimate how hot the gas gets the instant of firing?
No, that's not necessary. I had trouble enough digesting your last post! :D

It's amazing how there's always more happening that one realizes.
It does seem that Hatcher and Hawks are generally saying the same thing. It seems to me that's a pretty good look inside the barrel at the time of firing without getting into specific temperatures and pressures.
 
So to the OP's question, bullet/barrel friction only accounts for about 2% and heat transferred from the burning powder to the barrel is about 30% (almost as much energy as used to move the bullet!). Am I reading this right?
Not sure. The energy figure associated with friction is characterized as mechanical energy, not thermal energy. What did he mean?

I would have assumed that, in forcing a bullet of groove diameter down a rifled barrel, one would convert the energy used in deforming the bullet into thermal energy, heating both the bullet and barrel a great deal.

The effects may not be that great, however. Consider the operation of a milling machine. Both the cutter and the part do get hot as the cutter deforms the material beyond its shear limits, but a dribble of coolant prevents damage, and said coolant does not vaporize from the heat.

I have one nagging thought, however. It seems to me that when I fired jacketed bullets in my Model 1903 rifle, the barrel seemed to heat up a lot more than when I fired softer bullets cast from linotype metal with rather similar propellant loads. However, that was a long, long time ago and I took no measurements.

The heat "transferred from the burning powder" (as in holding a match under a knife blade for just a millisecond) may not really explain things either. To evaluate only the direct conversion of chemical energy to thermal energy, one could simply burn some smokeless propellant in an open container and measure the thermal energy output in calories.

There's also the pressure component. In a high powered rifle, the pressure rises to, say, 65,000 psi from a nominal 25 psi, due to the rapid introduction of gas as a byproduct of combustion, while the volume of the container expands only as the bullet moves down the barrel. As billybobjoe points out, the temperature would rise very considerably due to the gas pressure.

The only way to find out how much would be to know the volume of burned gasses created at ambient pressure (or the amount, in moles) and the gas constant and to calculate the temperature rise that would result from very quickly injecting said amount, starting with the gas at ambient temperature, into the barrel. Because the bullet moves down the barrel increasing the volume of the container, integral calculus would be needed.

I don't know the answer, but my impression is that the barrel is probably heated much more by gas pressure than it is heated either directly from the flame or by friction.
 
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If 7% of energy is heating the bullet by friction, is the same amount of friction heat going into the barrel? Would it be less because steel doesn't conduct heat as well as gilding metal?
I wouldn't think it would be any more. There isn't a lot of time for the heat transfer to take place.
 
Regardless of percentages and in depth scientific discussions, I think this still sums it up the best and simplest.

What exactly is it that makes a barrel hot when you fire a gun? I mean is it the friction of the bullet going down the barrel? Or is it the burning powder? Maybe a combination?
 
Regardless of percentages and in depth scientific discussions, I think this still sums it up the best and simplest.

What exactly is it that makes a barrel hot when you fire a gun? I mean is it the friction of the bullet going down the barrel? Or is it the burning powder? Maybe a combination?
Well, it does restate the question, but it doesn't sum anything up.

There is some effect of the bullet friction, and I think one would have to include in that the mechanical energy converted to thermal energy by the deformation of the bullet by the rifling lands. Probably rather small.

There is some effect of the "burning powder."

However, as billybobjoe pointed out, there is a third factor. That is the effect of the rapid compression of the large volume of gas produced by the "burning powder." That is a separate and distinct process from that involving the exothermic properties of combustion per se. It's what makes a diesel engine work.

To measure the effects of bullet friction, one could theoretically ram a number of bullets through a barrel with an engine with sufficient force.

To measure the caloric output of the exothermic combustion reaction, one could simply burn some of the propellant in a bowl and measure the increase in temperature of, say, a given volume of water. That, by the way, is how they originally measured the caloric energy in a "serving" of your Wheaties.:) From the result, one could calculate the effect in terms of barrel heating.

The compression effect could be measured by introducing gas at ambient temperature from a big enough reservoir of very, very high pressure gas (think "air rifle" with a velocity of 2,800 fps with a 165 grain bullet(!)) and observing the heating effect, but that would be an expensive undertaking. Some high-speed wind tunnels do have the capability, but the cost of using one is enormous. Better to just sum the friction and chemical reaction effects and compare the sum with the heating experienced in actual shooting.

When the original question was posed, and before billybobjoe offered his opinion, it had not occurred to me that a major contributor, and possibly the major contributor, to barrel heating involves a third factor not included in the OP's original question.

Good discussion.
 
The compression isn't another source of energy, because the energy to compress the gas is caused by the powder being burned.
I think it's safe to just say that the majority of the barrel heating is caused by the hot gasses, and a small amount is caused by friction.
 
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The compression isn't another source of energy, because the energy to compress the gas is caused by the powder being burned.
True, to the extent that the compression of the gas is caused by the introduction of additional gas into the limited volume of the container by the powder being burned.

I think it's safe to just say that the majority of the barrel heating is caused by the hot gasses, and a small amount is caused by friction.
So do I.
 
The temperature of the combustion gas ranges from around 1600 degrees F to around 4000 degrees F, depending on the gun, barrel length, and the powder. (An acetylene torch is about 3200 degrees to 3800 degrees F.)

The only reason the barrel doesn't just burn up is that the heat doesn't last long and most is absorbed by the barrel. But sustained firing will destroy a barrel; I have seen the barrel of an M1 rifle turn cherry red and droop after about 15 clips (it could have been more) fired as fast as possible. Needless to say the barrel was ruined, but it had been shot out anyway, so no loss.

Jim
 
The energy comes from the enthalpy and entropy of burning gun powder. The gases at the instant of firing have a temperature about 1.5 times higher due to the pressure. (1.5 times the absolute temp, degrees C + 273) So if the reaction produced a volume of gas at 1 atm which is 200 degrees C (312F) then at 60,000 psi it would be 437 degrees C (643F). I came up with the 1.5 by making several assumptions (such as all the gas produced is nitrogen).
 
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