bullet proof vests

My vest/plates are back in the hands of the Guh'munt, and likely on the back of some other kid. I'm out of the service and see no point of them in civvie life in this country. In a war torn country, or a war zone sure. Or a police officer.

But really, what exactly do you do that you need ballistic protection? If someone breaks in your house with the intention of wasting you, they aren't going to wait for you to go dig out, and put on your vest.

Avoiding a violent confrontation is much better than spending $800 dollars on a ballistic vest.

Unless you are a cop, a solder, or a drug dealer, you don't need a bullet resistant vest.

Period.

rc

I'm neither a cop, or a drug dealer, and I am former military.

Occupation has nothing to do with the desire to survive being shot.
I wear my vest when I'm on my daily walks, when I go to a bad part of town for whatever reason, or when I leave the house at night.

Sure it can get a bit uncomfortable at times due to heat, but it's a small price to pay for the peace of mind it gives me.

Those of you that say "avoid bad parts of town" what do you do when you happen to live there? Move? Ok... Give me the $900-$1500 it will cost me to move, then find a place in a nice part of town for me that costs the $525 a month I pay here.

I say wear a vest if you want, if you don't then don't expect to survive if you end up shot. Sure you run a decent chance of surviving being shot by a handgun, but wouldn't you rather avoid it if you can?

Well I personally don't live in constant fear of getting shot up living my daily life, but that's neither here nor there.

I spend most of my time in Chicago and don't forsee myself being the target of some gang-banger on a rampage. I'm more likely to get stabbed, run down by a drunk behind the wheel, or falling out of an office building. My current life is MUCH more safe then it was just over a year ago. Wearing those vests/plates SUCKS.

You can wear them, I won't. Let's hope neither of us go looking for another gun fight.

Unless you are a cop, a solder, or a drug dealer, you don't need a bullet resistant vest.

Period.

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That's a rather simplistic and narrow minded view. There are many people who also could benefit from wearing one. Private security, people who carry lots of cash or valuables, people at risk for K&R or associated with people who would be high profile targets for K&R. Depending on what circles you run in these types of people may be common place. Do not think because YOU don't run in those circles that nobody else needs one.

I'm just a simplistic and narrow minded guy.

And I simplified my reply in post #3.
I agree if you are a rent-a-cop, a bag man on a Brinks truck, or a bodyguard for Paris Hilton, a vest would be a smart thing to wear.

For most of the rest of us normal civilians going about our normal business, it borders on paranoid.

rc

The chances of me needing one at present is low enough to not justify the expense. If our country continues in its current direction that will change.

rcmodel said:

I'm just a simplistic and narrow minded guy.

And I simplified my reply in post #3.
I agree if you are a rent-a-cop, a bag man on a Brinks truck, or a bodyguard for Paris Hilton, a vest would be a smart thing to wear.

For most of the rest of us normal civilians going about our normal business, it borders on paranoid.

rc

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So you're saying it's paranoid to put on some III-A or II body armor when you hear a window break in your house? Or you're taking out large sums of money? I'd rather be safe and paranoid than dead.
It's definitely not high on my list of what I need to buy, but it's definitely there.

Unless you are a cop, a solder, or a drug dealer, you don't need a bullet resistant vest.

Period.

rc

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No?

How about private investigators? Subpoena servicing agents? Fugitive recovery agents? Repossessors? Armored car personnel? Armed guards? A realtor who works in really rough areas (I knew one that wore one after getting, you guessed it...shot), or anyone that carries a lot of cash in a bad area, like a business owner going to the bank? How about a bank teller? Someone that has a stalker? How about a bartender in a really seedy bar? A liquor store clerk? A convenience store clerk?

None of them need or could realistically benefit from vests?

I have two vests, both Class IIIA with Class IV ceramic trauma plates.

Edit: I see you say you simplified your post and expanded on your original point. But i still think anyone that wants one should be allowed to have them.

Avoiding a violent confrontation is much better than spending $800 dollars on a ballistic vest.

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You can get a used but 100% serviceable Class IIIA vest for about $300.

I'm just a simplistic and narrow minded guy.

And I simplified my reply in post #3.
I agree if you are a rent-a-cop, a bag man on a Brinks truck, or a bodyguard for Paris Hilton, a vest would be a smart thing to wear.

For most of the rest of us normal civilians going about our normal business, it borders on paranoid.

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I usually agree with RC but not here. I think if you live in a high crime area (Chicago, D.C. or areas with a lot of gang violence) then it might be a good idea to at least get a used police vest cause you never know when you might enter an area where gangsters are about to shoot it out. I live in a small city in AR, therefore I don't see any need for me to where one, but then again I don't live in a high crime area.

Apparently having been the only person here who was shot wearing a vest, I can assure you you don't need one.

A bullet "proof" vest does nothing at all to prevent the shock and broken ribs you will get. You're out of the fight. It doesn't help a lone man in a firefight at all. I'll echo what rcmodel said.

Unless you are a soldier or something, you have no use for one. The vest is there to save your life while your backup takes care of the person who hit you. There's no need to wear one in any other situation, because the difference in the initial pain you will experience being shot with or without one is about zero. If you are alone and someone wants you dead, the vest won't do anything at all to prevent that.

There is no self defense use for a vest whatsoever. While you're buying a vest for "self defense" you might as well buy a shoulder-launched SAM for "self defense".

Well, there are ( or were ) quite a few different kinds of Vests...some of which were/are not associated with any heavy bruises or broken ribs and so on, at least not from Handgun or light Rifle Fire anyway.

Heavy Rifle is kind of a different matter.


I think they are a good idea, if a situation warrantes it, and if one has to be in such a situation.


How many of us as civvilians will anticipate having to be in situations which warrant it, enough to wear one?


Not many...maybe close to none.


Situational awareness, in the sense also of demuring from situations which pose high risk, are much cooler, lighter, and easier to 'wear'...

"The chances of me needing one at present is low enough to not justify the expense. If our country continues in its current direction that will change."

This pretty much sums it up. I was lucky enough to have a friend who recently bought a home in centeral Ill. The guy he bought it off of worked for the Terminal Railroad as a security guard. When that guy moved out and my friend moved in he found a Second Chance IIIA vest with a trama plate in the garage. He asked the guy if he wanted it and he said to keep it. Well my friend, knowing I am a collector of Military related things, gave it to me. Now if or when I may need it.....I will have it. At a great price! If not for that I probably would not have bought one.

Apparently having been the only person here who was shot wearing a vest, I can assure you you don't need one.

A bullet "proof" vest does nothing at all to prevent the shock and broken ribs you will get. You're out of the fight. It doesn't help a lone man in a firefight at all. I'll echo what rcmodel said.

Unless you are a soldier or something, you have no use for one. The vest is there to save your life while your backup takes care of the person who hit you. There's no need to wear one in any other situation, because the difference in the initial pain you will experience being shot with or without one is about zero. If you are alone and someone wants you dead, the vest won't do anything at all to prevent that.

There is no self defense use for a vest whatsoever. While you're buying a vest for "self defense" you might as well buy a shoulder-launched SAM for "self defense".

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I disagree entirely.

Most bullets lack the energy to break bones through a vest.

The owner of second chance has famously voluntarily taken 12ga slug and .308 rifle shots at point blank range -on video- and suffered no injury at all. None. I can find the videos and post them, if you'd like.

The LA bank robbers ability to continue to fight even after multiple hits also totally contradicts your blanket statement that you will be unable to fight after taking a hit.

What's more, many people are able to fight even after taking multiple hits with no vest on. I appreciate your report on what happened in one isolated incident that involved you, but yours is far from typical based on all the evidence that i've seen.

Here's a link to just one of many videos of a man being shot at point blank range with a vest and suffering zero injury.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/22/ballistic-vest-designer-shoots-employees-point-blank/

Here's the second chance video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIhyETXW1u0

He is quoted in that video as saying he has shot himself or been shot 201 times with body armor on.

valorius said:

The owner of second chance has famously voluntarily taken 12ga slug and .308 rifle shots at point blank range -on video- and suffered no injury at all. None. I can find the videos and post them, if you'd like.

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And people selling things are NEVER known to rig such product demonstrations to get people who want to be sold a fantasy version of self defense to buy their products. You have to learn to develop a BS detector. People who are selling you things such as vests, fancy 'hidden' weapons, mutilated military hand-to-hand things blown into full "martial arts" with a name of the month attached (Krav Maga is the current name for the favored form of Bullshido currently) will be happy to tell you how their item or art is the one single magic talisman that will protect you if the "SHTF". You will link to this and that and at the end of the day believe what you want to believe, I'll believe personal experience and the opinions of soldiers and policemen who use this stuff on a day to day basis.

I was wearing Class IIA just carrying an empty bag into a bank, got a few shots of 9mm, and got fractured ribs with one flatout broken. I suppose if my name were John (Rambo or Matrix) I could have drawn my sidearm and returned fire, but in the real world the man riding shotgun is who solved the situation, and he solved it without really doing more than firing it into the ground. The owner of "Second Chance" is free to claim that doesn't happen as much as he wants. It's right up there with people who swear up and down their "silencer" makes them into Specops warriors who are utterly undetectable and their commando knives with CO2 injection capabilities are sane "self defense" weaponry. If you want to believe such things, you'll believe it and spend thousands of dollars buying useless equipment.. and more power to you if you have it for the cool factor...

...but it has no civilian use of any kind, and even 9mm shots hurt enough to stop you unless you're also wearing trauma plates. A bullet"proof" vest simply does not do what you want it to do. It will not eat bullets and make the force of them magically vanish.

If you DO go around daily wearing trauma plates, perhaps you should stop living in fear, preparing for things that (if they come up you are going to die anyway) and prepare for things that might happen and you might have to face off against. If you're ever in any situation where you actually NEED that trauma plated armor, you're pretty much going for mutual destruction anyway.

Also, I refer you to the old "Box o' Truth" http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16.htm

That's against class 3 body armor. Obviously, you'd want a rifle, but I sure wouldn't curl up into a ball and pee myself if people wearing Class III armor wanted to kill me and all I had was a pistol. I'd certainly be sure to leave or I was going to die and wondering how stupid I could possibly have been to get into this situation. But gosh I'd sure fire shots center mass as I ran like crazy to get away from the Russians landing paratroopers or whatever insane scenario caused this to happen. Perhaps I angered a clan of Ninja or something and between the constant zombie attacks I had to face off with 27 of them in a dark alley wielding UMP-45's. Of course then if I did somehow survive the coked-up body armor wearing ninja they'd then get me with the HIND they had waiting for me that I was too stupid to buy a SAM should I ever encounter one.

Long story short:

Quit preparing for things that won't happen: you aren't adequately prepared for them even if they did anyway, and you never will be.

....aaand having said all that... while I DO own a vest WITH trauma plates (got to keep one from the job that had split the fabric up front)).... I can't see any reason to ever wear it out and about, no matter how "high crime" the area is. It's just not FOR any situation I'll ever encounter likely enough to make it worth carrying around on a daily basis. At some point you have to stop fantasizing and start taking stock of your actual surroundings.

I and a few of the guys who work as Range Officers at the N.T.I. personally bought our own sets of body armor shortly after Ken V. got shot back in 2000.


I don't recall ever wearing it outside of working a stage at the club or running others through the shoothouses.

rcmodel said:

I'm just a simplistic and narrow minded guy.

And I simplified my reply in post #3.
I agree if you are a rent-a-cop, a bag man on a Brinks truck, or a bodyguard for Paris Hilton, a vest would be a smart thing to wear.

For most of the rest of us normal civilians going about our normal business, it borders on paranoid.

rc

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....see now I had to write a zillion words when just this woulda sufficed.

Oh and... http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/22/ballistic-vest-designer-shoots-employees-point-blank/

Why is there no bullet hole until after the camera cuts away and then it magically appeara?

If we're talking about full bulky armor it's not too practical for day-to-day use outside a few professions. But the stuff keeps getting lighter and more practical. So why not? People outside the military and law enforcement get shot all the time.

Unless you are a soldier or something, you have no use for one. The vest is there to save your life while your backup takes care of the person who hit you. There's no need to wear one in any other situation, because the difference in the initial pain you will experience being shot with or without one is about zero. If you are alone and someone wants you dead, the vest won't do anything at all to prevent that.

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Have you been shot WITHOUT the vest? Pain is one thing. Broken ribs are one thing. Big bruises are one thing. A deep laceration at supersonic speed into your upper torso by an expanding bullet is another thing entirely. Medically they're not even in the same time zone. Or planet. There's a big difference between getting bruised and broken and getting actually shot in the torso. The fact that you are here to argue about this is actually a very good argument in favor of wearing protection.

Besides, if your point were accurate, there would be NO POINT to LEO's on solo patrol wearing a vest. Yet they do. And SUCH VESTS SAVE LIVES EVEN WHEN THE OFFICER IS ALONE AND SHOT MULTIPLE TIMES. Example from just recently right here in Anchorage:

Officer Jean Mills was halfway through the night shift when she stopped a west-bound Ford Taurus for an illegal turn at about 3:15 a.m. on DeBarr Road, police say. At some point during the stop, she was shot multiple times.

Police said Mills underwent surgery, which went well, though she faces a long recovery.

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http://www.adn.com/2010/06/09/1314767/anchorage-officer-shot-during.html

And ANOTHER example--again of a lone APD officer--who was shot last year multiple times while sitting in his car doing paperwork:

"There's no doubt that vest saved my life," Allen said. "That and some bad marksmanship at point-blank range."

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http://www.adn.com/2010/04/10/1220886/bulletproof-vest-bad-marksmanship.html

So that's two examples in the past two years from right here where a lone person survived attempted murder and multiple shots because of the vest. Your point about not being able to do much after being hit seems very sound, but to conclude from that that the vest is useless without a partner backing you up is less sound.

I'm not a cop, but I travel through those same neighborhoods by bike, sometimes late. Who knows what can happen? If they come out with a light and wearable IIIA I can afford, I might get it.

For most of the rest of us normal civilians going about our normal business, it borders on paranoid.

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... which is almost WORD-FOR-WORD the same argument I've heard thousands of times from people arguing against shall issue laws. Given that we're talking about a purely defensive measure, it makes even LESS sense in this context.

The LA bank robbers ability to continue to fight even after multiple hits also totally contradicts your blanket statement that you will be unable to fight after taking a hit.

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The amount of body armor they had on was way beyond what anyone typically wears. So would be a very very poor way to judge the effectiveness of soft armor.

They wore more than virtually anyone other than an EOD tech. It was home made stitched together by one of them from other armor, and weighed over 40 pounds not counting the protective inserts.

In fact it was so much that these two bodybuilders could only wear the body armor for a short period of time, numbering in the range of minutes before they would begin to overheat. They knew this from training and knew they had a time window in which to fight and escape before they would drop from exhaustion due to the massive amount of armor and heat.

Most pictures of the two show them years prior when they look like kids. These were body builders and based on the rapid change in facial features and hairline between the prior pictures and the arrest photo in such a short time period, using anabolic steroids as well.


This was more body armor than anyone could actually wear going about their daily routine.
In fact it is well over double the amount of body armor a soldier on the battlefield wears.
(Yet they still received many rounds that penetrated the body armor.)

For comparison:

Originally the Interceptor Body Armor system weighed in at a total of 16.4 pounds (7.4 kg), with the vest weighing 8.4 pounds (3.8 kg), and two plate inserts weighing four pounds (1.8 kg) each. This is considerably lighter than the previous body armor fielded in Somalia weighing 25.1 pounds (11.4 kg) that most troops complained was too heavy and unwieldy for combat operations.

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8.4 pounds vs 40 pounds, plus inserts. It is still almost double what troops said was too much when they had 25 pound body armor.

While Phillips was shot in the hand and shortly afterward committed suicide, a SWAT officer reported during the final gunfire exchange that his M16 rounds could not penetrate Mătăsăreanu's armor suggesting that the outcome could have been different had both robbers been wearing leg protection.

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They ended up shooting the second guy in the legs underneath the car, and he took at least 29 rounds in the legs and shins.


They were not wearing your typical vest. This was a quantity of body armor that was meant to be worn for minutes by two body builders, not hours or by your average guy.
As a result it provided proportionally greater protection than armor that could be worn for hours.


Typical civilian and police vests offer nowhere near as much protection.

I'd say for day to day living it would be very impractical, now if you live in the ghetto or have a high risk job...sure.

The amount of body armor they had on was way beyond what anyone typically wears. So would be a very very poor way to judge the effectiveness of soft armor.

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I have a Class IIIA vest with Class IV ceramic Trauma plates front and rear, plus a Class II groin flap with a Class IV ceramic trauma plate as well.

Nothing special about the rig, it's quite typical, and quite comparable to what the LA robbers were wearing.

It's also plenty comfortable given the protection it gives you. I've worn it for 8 hour shifts before, it's not that big a deal, and it can easily be worn under clothes. You don't have to tell me about uncomfortable armor or heavy loads, i was in the Infantry. I have probably thousands of hours wearing body armor under my belt.

I don't walk around with mine on a daily basis, but for work you bet i use it sometimes. And i have it next to my bed in my bedroom, in case i hear a thump in the night sufficient to convince me that there is a real chance someone is in the house.

Takes 10 seconds to put it on, and it will stop .44 mag 240gr in the soft parts, and .30-06 in the trauma plates.

Anyone that thinks Second Chances videos are rigged, well, you have your opinion... i have mine.

And people selling things are NEVER known to rig such product demonstrations to get people who want to be sold a fantasy version of self defense to buy their products. You have to learn to develop a BS detector. People who are selling you things such as vests, fancy 'hidden' weapons, mutilated military hand-to-hand things blown into full "martial arts" with a name of the month attached (Krav Maga is the current name for the favored form of Bullshido currently) will be happy to tell you how their item or art is the one single magic talisman that will protect you if the "SHTF". You will link to this and that and at the end of the day believe what you want to believe, I'll believe personal experience and the opinions of soldiers and policemen who use this stuff on a day to day basis.

I was wearing Class IIA just carrying an empty bag into a bank, got a few shots of 9mm, and got fractured ribs with one flatout broken. I suppose if my name were John (Rambo or Matrix) I could have drawn my sidearm and returned fire, but in the real world the man riding shotgun is who solved the situation, and he solved it without really doing more than firing it into the ground. The owner of "Second Chance" is free to claim that doesn't happen as much as he wants. It's right up there with people who swear up and down their "silencer" makes them into Specops warriors who are utterly undetectable and their commando knives with CO2 injection capabilities are sane "self defense" weaponry. If you want to believe such things, you'll believe it and spend thousands of dollars buying useless equipment.. and more power to you if you have it for the cool factor...

...but it has no civilian use of any kind, and even 9mm shots hurt enough to stop you unless you're also wearing trauma plates. A bullet"proof" vest simply does not do what you want it to do. It will not eat bullets and make the force of them magically vanish.

If you DO go around daily wearing trauma plates, perhaps you should stop living in fear, preparing for things that (if they come up you are going to die anyway) and prepare for things that might happen and you might have to face off against. If you're ever in any situation where you actually NEED that trauma plated armor, you're pretty much going for mutual destruction anyway.

Also, I refer you to the old "Box o' Truth" http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16.htm

That's against class 3 body armor. Obviously, you'd want a rifle, but I sure wouldn't curl up into a ball and pee myself if people wearing Class III armor wanted to kill me and all I had was a pistol. I'd certainly be sure to leave or I was going to die and wondering how stupid I could possibly have been to get into this situation. But gosh I'd sure fire shots center mass as I ran like crazy to get away from the Russians landing paratroopers or whatever insane scenario caused this to happen. Perhaps I angered a clan of Ninja or something and between the constant zombie attacks I had to face off with 27 of them in a dark alley wielding UMP-45's. Of course then if I did somehow survive the coked-up body armor wearing ninja they'd then get me with the HIND they had waiting for me that I was too stupid to buy a SAM should I ever encounter one.

Long story short:

Quit preparing for things that won't happen: you aren't adequately prepared for them even if they did anyway, and you never will be.

....aaand having said all that... while I DO own a vest WITH trauma plates (got to keep one from the job that had split the fabric up front)).... I can't see any reason to ever wear it out and about, no matter how "high crime" the area is. It's just not FOR any situation I'll ever encounter likely enough to make it worth carrying around on a daily basis. At some point you have to stop fantasizing and start taking stock of your actual surroundings.

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For all the histrionics and insults going on in this post, it sure is low on fact.

And the posters total of 6 posts combined with his thinking he's the only one on THR who's ever been shot while wearing a vest tells me he really doesn't know this forum very well or the kind of people who frequent it.

Famous last words....next thing this poster will say I don't need a gun either...

Unless you are a cop, a solder, or a drug dealer, you don't need a bullet resistant vest.

Period.

rc