The Myth of Old West Gun Violence
- Thread starter the iron horse
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Arkansas Paul
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I gotcha. Sorry misinterpreting you.
summerhelp
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One thing people forget is the west didn’t just start after the Civil War. The West or the frontier started on the Atlantic coast and moved with settlement over the Appalachian Mountains, the Ohio River Valley, and then the Plains. The West is not a place. The difficulties of wild animals, Indians, outlaws are not specific to just after the Civil War. King Phillip, Metcom, attacked half the villages in the New England area and pushed the West miles back east. Throw in Pontiacs War, the Creek and Seminole wars; the West was never a safe place to be. Several times the Indians fought the army to a stand still and Custer was not the only person to loose his whole command. To not know how to use a gun would have been a death sentence on the frontier no matter where you consider the West to start.
Vern Humphrey
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But it was reported in several towns -- and knowing the population of those towns, the homicide rate can be calculated.
d2wing
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Good point Summer, duelling was more popular before the Colt .45 was invented and life was more violent in the Black powder days. Most people would be better armed on the frontier where ever that was at the time. By the late 1800's many areas were being homesteaded by new immigrants that were not used to being armed. Different from the earlier frontiersmen that were more self-reliant.
Kenneth
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As far as I know all of these places were all cattle drive destinations. Since cattle drives were seasonal events then it was probably more like a spring break scenario than anything else. About one month every year you had cowboys just in from the range, who upon getting paid, after their first baths and shaves in weeks, proceeded to engage in drinking , whoring, and gambling. Most of the violence came in form of fist fights over women and money (things have changed sooo much since then). The vast majority of injurys was to the pride of those who came up short in the aforementioned fist fights.
The real dangerous and violent places were the mining towns where you could get back-stabbed in a heartbeat over your claim if you were known to have come up with a little precious metal.
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the iron horse
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This is an interesting topic and discussion.
Here's another link on the subject:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-113725.html
Here's another link on the subject:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-113725.html
The Real Wyatt
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Research indicates that the average pay for a cowhand in the 1880's was about a dollar a day.
Vern Humphrey
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Consider also, there was no income tax and no sales tax.
Tommygunn
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How did government(s) survive back then? ? ?
They weren't nearly as gigantic as they are today, and they taxed imports (tariffs) rather than income and everyday goods. Frankly, I wonder how a country like the United States, as conceived, could survive with such an omnipotent, meddlesome, wasteful bureaucracy of a federal government these days...I guess it doesn't.
You are correct. As was said back then, "Thirty a month and found."
Plus, cowboys provided their own saddles, although the rancher provided the horses... provided a "hand" could ride those outlaw broncs.
I've done a lot of research on those times and places, and from what I've gathered, notwithstanding the gold and silver camps, the all time roughest, most dangerous, virtually lawless place and time was the Indian Territory. It later became "Oklahoma," but at that time was adminstered under the Western District Federal Court at Fort Smith, Arkansas.
The Indian Territory, or "The Nations," as it came to be called, also gained the sobriquet, "Land of the Six Shooter." It was well earned.
There have been many non-fiction books written about that era, but one of the most fascinating I've read is "Law West Of Fort Smith," by Glenn Shirley, Univ. of Nebraska Press, (c)1957. Deals with the U.S. Deputy Marshals who served under a man named Isaac Charles Parker, Federal Judge at Fort Smith. Parker became known as "The Hanging Judge."
An outstanding fiction novel, "True Grit," by Charles Portis, Simon & Schuster Publs., (c)1968, is one of the best novels about that era I've read. It expresses realistically the attitude of U.S.Deputy Marshals regarding the hardcase outlaws they went out to arrest . (In my opinion, Portis' novel is superior to either of the movies made from his book.)
Rough times, rough days, and rough men.
L.W.
Vern Humphrey
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Amen to that.
The Indian Territory was lawless because, although there were tribes with courts and police, they had no jurisdiction over White men. The worst killers and sadists gravitated to the Indian Territory. The "Hanging Judge," Isaac Parker, was appointed to clean up the Indian Territory. One interesting fact is that he hanged about 60 men, but had about 61 of his deputy marshalls killed in the line of duty.
There used to be a saying, "No law west of the Mississippi. No God west of Fort Smith."
The Indian Territory was lawless because, although there were tribes with courts and police, they had no jurisdiction over White men. The worst killers and sadists gravitated to the Indian Territory. The "Hanging Judge," Isaac Parker, was appointed to clean up the Indian Territory. One interesting fact is that he hanged about 60 men, but had about 61 of his deputy marshalls killed in the line of duty.
There used to be a saying, "No law west of the Mississippi. No God west of Fort Smith."
During the tv western's heydays of the late fifties/early sixties the city of Monmouth, IL, celebrated a "fall festival". They asked Hugh O'Brien to come and be the grand marshall. He wanted $10K, no small chunk of change. The event organizers asked my dad to come up with another idea. He decided to have a "Marshall's contest" and convinced Colt to loan us a pair of Buntline Specials (second model, in, of all things, 38 special). He also got, on microfiche, years worth of the Tombstone Epitaph. We studied and searched and could find no evidence of shootouts on Main ST. or anywhere else. The Dave Tutt, Bill Hickock thing in Springfield was not mentioned there but we researched it as well as we could.
Our contest was a straightforward bullseye match, held over the summer, and the entrant with the best three total scores won.
We supplied the guns, ammo, targets, and charged a nominal fee. I spent the summer casting bullets and reloading those 38 cases. Made enough to get a better press.
In our research we found lots of mention of shootings but none about "face downs". It seemed a lot of people were armed.
BTW, just before and after the turn of the century, surplus places like Bannerman's sold civil war revolvers for a buck or two.
Our contest was a straightforward bullseye match, held over the summer, and the entrant with the best three total scores won.
We supplied the guns, ammo, targets, and charged a nominal fee. I spent the summer casting bullets and reloading those 38 cases. Made enough to get a better press.
In our research we found lots of mention of shootings but none about "face downs". It seemed a lot of people were armed.
BTW, just before and after the turn of the century, surplus places like Bannerman's sold civil war revolvers for a buck or two.
deadin
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I wonder how many more never made it to court in the process of his having 61 deputy marshalls killed?
Does you want to really get to the bottom of this gunfighter & gunfights stuff?
Think twice, 'cuz maybe you don't...
Anyway, buy a book: Great Gunfighters of the Kansas Cowtowns; 1867-1886 by Nyle H. Miller and Joseph W. Snell (University of Nebraska Press).
The book is made up of chapters, with each one covering a famous (or not so famous) gunfighter. The text consists of original newspaper accounts of they're exploits, writen at the time the incidents happened. If there is fiction here it's original, not later - and the Hollywood versions are not to be found.
Wonderful insights into to how things really were during those times.
Think twice, 'cuz maybe you don't...
Anyway, buy a book: Great Gunfighters of the Kansas Cowtowns; 1867-1886 by Nyle H. Miller and Joseph W. Snell (University of Nebraska Press).
The book is made up of chapters, with each one covering a famous (or not so famous) gunfighter. The text consists of original newspaper accounts of they're exploits, writen at the time the incidents happened. If there is fiction here it's original, not later - and the Hollywood versions are not to be found.
Wonderful insights into to how things really were during those times.
Vern Humphrey
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Modern research shows not only was the West not that wild, but many famous "gunfighters" (Bat Masterson, for example) left no record of ever killing anyone.
I should think that with the price of weapons and ammo, there would be very little practicing going on. So these old movies with "Glen Ford" and "Gregory peck", where the claim to have spent 6 hours a day practicing, would make absolutelly no sense. As you would have to be a fairly wealthy man to shoot that much lead. As many guys mentioned, I have read over the years many articles on the reality vs the movies we see. And almost all say there were very few actual shootings. And as mentioned the gunslingers as we know them, almost never really killed anyone. I think Hickock may have been close to the real deal, and Harding. But Earp, Jesse james, and Billy the kid and most of the others we see in the movies did very little in the way of shootouts. Most were either lawmen or just thieves. There wasn't much to stop a few well armed men back then, 1850's-60's so you could ride out of town and if you made it down main street, you pretty much were out of danger. I think that the Posse thing would have taken too long, and the bad guys would have been gone by the time they got organised.The legend is usually far more interesting than the truth.
Vern Humphrey
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Most killing in the Old West was cold-blooded murder, not a face-to-face shootout. In the case of Wyatt Earp, he was in a real face-to-face shootout at the OK Corral (which actually took place in a vacant lot behind the corral.)
After his brother was killed and another brother wounded by back-shooting, he managed to get himself appointed a Marshall and used his official position to hunt down and kill all members of Clanton-McClaury faction.
The "Wild West" really wasn't full of shootouts.
Many western movies have more people shot and killed in gunfights in a town in a couple days than were killed in the entire United States in a month.
That is what I have found before as well.
The Indian Territory by virtue of having no authority over white men was a magnet to white outlaws that had done something bad elsewhere in the United States and were trying to escape the law.
This brought a much larger percentage of the limited number of violent criminals in the US to the area than anywhere else.
The Civil War being such a widespread war with high casualty rates, many of those men that were inclined to pick up arms and were brave had already died.
Wars with high casualty rates tend to do that, remove the most brave and those attracted to armed conflict from the population.
The biggest heroes often don't come home, because the number of heroic acts they perform eventually catches up with them.
The percentage of males 18-40 killed was large, a much greater percentage in the South.
While much of what is portrayed in movies and media as westerns is supposed to be around the 1880s, that was only around 20 years after the war had ended.
The generation in between had been raised predominantly by parents who had come to despise armed conflict after seeing all the hardship and bloodshed that war had brought to most families in the Civil War.
This was not a society that would have produced a lot of people willing to die or even fight over minor things like portrayed in the media and most Westerns.
That was probably one of the generations in American history most adverse to violence or armed conflict.
Which would help to partially explain why even the smallest shootout was national news.
Many western movies have more people shot and killed in gunfights in a town in a couple days than were killed in the entire United States in a month.
That is what I have found before as well.
The Indian Territory by virtue of having no authority over white men was a magnet to white outlaws that had done something bad elsewhere in the United States and were trying to escape the law.
This brought a much larger percentage of the limited number of violent criminals in the US to the area than anywhere else.
The Civil War being such a widespread war with high casualty rates, many of those men that were inclined to pick up arms and were brave had already died.
Wars with high casualty rates tend to do that, remove the most brave and those attracted to armed conflict from the population.
The biggest heroes often don't come home, because the number of heroic acts they perform eventually catches up with them.
The percentage of males 18-40 killed was large, a much greater percentage in the South.
While much of what is portrayed in movies and media as westerns is supposed to be around the 1880s, that was only around 20 years after the war had ended.
The generation in between had been raised predominantly by parents who had come to despise armed conflict after seeing all the hardship and bloodshed that war had brought to most families in the Civil War.
This was not a society that would have produced a lot of people willing to die or even fight over minor things like portrayed in the media and most Westerns.
That was probably one of the generations in American history most adverse to violence or armed conflict.
Which would help to partially explain why even the smallest shootout was national news.
doubleh
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I was lucky enough to read a book a couple of years ago entitled "Ghosts Of The Guadalupes" that was researched and authored by Jerry Cox and is no longer available. It covers, from the late 19th century up until 1950, the history of the town of Eddy, later to be renamed to Carlsbad, a litte town to the south of Eddy which I've forgotten the name of and was so rough that the law wouldn't go there, and the Guadalupe Mountains of southeastern New Mexico. This area wasn't settled until the late 1800s and hasn't really received any attention from history. Billy The Kid became famous but he was quite a few miles north from this area.
There seemed to be a very good supply of guns and the inclination of the inhabitants to use them was pretty extreme too. Getting crossways with someone over something was a very easy way to get killed and a bunch of people did. It was mostly just someone deciding to shoot someone else and doing it. Most incidents involved land or money. There were a few shootouts involving more than two people but none of the movie, TV, duel in the street type of thing.
All the incidents in the book were well documented with newspaper accounts, actual pictures of a lot of the individuals and friends and family, police and court records and some interviews with surviving relatives and others with knowledge of the incidents.
I knew the area had a reputation of being very violent when it was being settled but I was surprised at the amount of killing and for the length of time it went on. I understand that most of this happened after the time frame of the original post but it is a footnote in western history.
There seemed to be a very good supply of guns and the inclination of the inhabitants to use them was pretty extreme too. Getting crossways with someone over something was a very easy way to get killed and a bunch of people did. It was mostly just someone deciding to shoot someone else and doing it. Most incidents involved land or money. There were a few shootouts involving more than two people but none of the movie, TV, duel in the street type of thing.
All the incidents in the book were well documented with newspaper accounts, actual pictures of a lot of the individuals and friends and family, police and court records and some interviews with surviving relatives and others with knowledge of the incidents.
I knew the area had a reputation of being very violent when it was being settled but I was surprised at the amount of killing and for the length of time it went on. I understand that most of this happened after the time frame of the original post but it is a footnote in western history.
In his biography Wyatt Earp said most of the cowboys were well armed and very proficient in the use of the revolver.
In his biography both Wyatt Earp and Bat Masterson said that it was the normal thing for those people who lived by their guns such as lawmen, outlaws, gamblers, and cowboys, to practice constantly. Wyatt said that Doc Holiday would practice quick draw a couple hours a day, and he said Doc was the fastest gun in the west. Gunpowder and lead were cheap and people reloaded. Of course most of the common folk such as merchants and farmers did not practice that much.
Also Wyatt tells of several times when men agreed to meet in the street and shoot each other, like in the movies.
Snowy Rivers
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Read the real truth about Wyatt Earp and his brothers were barely better than the pukes they confronted at the OK corral.
The vendeta ride as it has been called was no more than wholesale murder on the part of Doc Holliday and Wyatt Earp
A reconing (as Val Kilmer popped off with in the movie.)
The OK corral was way over hyped.
Yesssssss, Hollywood has way overplayed the old west shootouts.
One thing was for sure, ammo was not readily available out in the frontier, so protracted gun fights were not going to happen much for this reason.
There was however a lot of shootings where a person was shot in the back and other such snipings.
The gunfight out in the street at high noon is pretty much a Hollywood thing.
Snowy
The vendeta ride as it has been called was no more than wholesale murder on the part of Doc Holliday and Wyatt Earp
A reconing (as Val Kilmer popped off with in the movie.)
The OK corral was way over hyped.
Yesssssss, Hollywood has way overplayed the old west shootouts.
One thing was for sure, ammo was not readily available out in the frontier, so protracted gun fights were not going to happen much for this reason.
There was however a lot of shootings where a person was shot in the back and other such snipings.
The gunfight out in the street at high noon is pretty much a Hollywood thing.
Snowy
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