Gun Sale Document - legal review

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chrisf8657

chrisf8657

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Nov 25, 2006
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Phoenix, AZ
Gentlemen,

I have been using this document to sell guns for sometime.
I would like a review of it AND corrections if necessary.

DO NOT edit it if you do not understand Arizona law, or Federal law.
Some states have different provisions, this one was made with the language from the BATF form and our Arizona laws.

Any help is appreciated.

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Personally, if I wanted to sign a document like that, I would just buy the gun from a dealer.

If you are looking to CYA..... just do the transfer through an FFL.

You need to add a space for the purchase price of the firearm if you are looking to create a bill of sale.

Might as well put a spot for a photo of the buyer and thumbprint, too.
 
Wow. Uh, yeah. I can't start to edit that, because there'd be nothin' left.

If you just HAVE to have a bill of sale, I don't see any reason that it should include more than a quick sentence affirming that the buyer and seller are both selling legally, not felons, or otherwise prohibited. Anything more is pointless and intrusive, IMHO.
 
Toforo said:
Been sued yet?
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Sued for what? If the information was given voluntarily, I don't see a basis for a lawsuit. Unless the totality of that information is covered by the Privacy Act, in which case the form does not contain the proper privacy act warning. Then there would be a basis for a lawsuit.
 
What I want to know is:

What's wrong with this?
receipt_book.jpg

In most states, after the first sale, a gun is a commodity item, just like a toaster or refrigerator.

If you feel the need for some CYA, do as NavyLT suggests and run the deal through an FFL.

To the OP, why not get some outdated and unused 4473s from your local FFL? That'd save you some paper and ink and provide most :eek: of the info you require on your form.
 
NavyLT said:
Sued for what? If the information was given voluntarily, I don't see a basis for a lawsuit. Unless the totality of that information is covered by the Privacy Act, in which case the form does not contain the proper privacy act warning. Then there would be a basis for a lawsuit.
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Unless the totality of that information is covered by the Privacy Act, in which case the form does not contain the proper privacy act warning
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Bingo.
Then there's the "PROPER" handling, storage, and maintenance of that protected info.

"Our" opinions of the OP's document here, although solicited by the OP, are not relevant and are exactly that - "opinion"

- it's a document, that if the OP wants to use, should be reviewed by a local, competent, legal professional that includes legal direction as to the proper handling, maintenance, and storage of private/personal data.
 
Toforo said:
"Our" opinions of the OP's document here, although solicited by the OP, are not relevant and are exactly that - "opinion"
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Well, actually, all of our opinions expressed by us here have been unsolicited by the OP. The OP wanted corrections of his form sent to his email address provided. :D

To sum it up, I would not give a complete stranger on the street a copy of my driver's license or all of my driver's license information just because they asked for it.

If I don't personally know the seller of a firearm and they are not an FFL with the proper form 4473 and WA State Pistol Transfer form, they remain to me a complete stranger on the street. :D
 
....all those affirmations have been taken from the NICS form, but these are not verified by anyone, so what's the point? It does not seem to help you the seller any if you are subsequently accused of an illegal gun transfer; right?
 
This is exactly why I wonder I post things so people can just nitpick the crap out of it...

The document has worked to protect me, and I'll continue using it. I don't have the money to pay a lawyer $150 an hour to draft a 50-page form with all the disclaimers, etc.

I made what I could, and felt including the 4473 questions was fine.

Noone that I have used the form with over 8 times has EVER questioned it, or refused to provide the information. They don't want to sign it, I don't sell the gun.

Even though some of you argue you wouldn't provide a complete stranger your drivers license, you provide to to private sellers at SOME gun show booths, so what's the problem? - and the reason that information is written down is to prevent someone from lying about their name - if it don't match with what they've written down, something's wrong. It's a hidden extra security-measure. And the person buying the gun gets a carbon copy duplicate of the form....

If you don't like it, don't use it. I should have probably made it more clearly this form is for use in Arizona only, it may not have everything other states require.

....all those affirmations have been taken from the NICS form, but these are not verified by anyone, so what's the point? It does not seem to help you the seller any if you are subsequently accused of an illegal gun transfer; right?
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Um....most legal documents ask you to affirm something on it with your signature. Individuals can't perform a NICS check AFAIK....so, AFAIAC, this is the best someone can possibly do to protect their ass against trouble.
 
Exactly what do you beleive you are being protected against by using this form? If a felon buys a gun from you and he agrees to sign the document, you could still be accused of an illegal gun transfer.
 
chrisf8657 said:
I should have probably made it more clearly this form is for use in Arizona only, it may not have everything other states require.
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Umm, Arizona and other free states require . . . nothing . . . while some commie states require transfer via an FFL or transferees to be registered.
 
Umm, Arizona and other free states require . . . nothing . . . while some commie states require transfer via an FFL or transferees to be registered.
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You sir, are correct.
However, the purpose of this document is to:

  • Show the firearm was indeed sold
  • Show that I made an effort for the person to certify they are not a prohbited possesor
  • Retain records in case law enforcement (and ONLY LE) requires it (same as A i suppose)
  • Provide a bill of sale to the buyer should THEY require it for the same as above
 
rajb123 said:
Exactly what do you beleive you are being protected against by using this form? If a felon buys a gun from you and he agrees to sign the document, you could still be accused of an illegal gun transfer.
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Aye and +1... it would then be a DOCUMENTED illegal sale, lol
 
* Show the firearm was indeed sold
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A simple dated piece of paper with the model/SN/description of the gun and both yours & the buyer's signatures can show that.

* Show that I made an effort for the person to certify they are not a prohbited possesor
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Add a line that says "I, the undersigned, affirm that I am not a prohibited individual under state or Federal law and may legally possess firearms."

* Retain records in case law enforcement (and ONLY LE) requires it (same as A i suppose)
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A simple bill of sale as mentioned above will suffice for LEO.

* Provide a bill of sale to the buyer should THEY require it for the same as above
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Once again, a bill of sale is not required in AZ, but even a simple receipt will suffice if someone wants one.
 
You post a document, ask for the thoughts of the membership on it, and then are dismissive when you don't get the answers you wanted?

(I mean, seriously, you must have expected the majority here to say they have no interest in filling out your paperwork when making a private purchase -- especially when your paperwork is more intrusive than the government's! :rolleyes:)

So, I'll agree with you that I also have no idea why you'd bother to ask if you didn't really want the answer.

Closed.
 
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