Event at Cross Walk

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PolymathPioneer

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Week before last I was out with my daughter to purchase her first rifle in Helena Montana. While we were driving to the Sportsman's Warehouse in Helena, we saw a down and out rancher that was asking for money with his wife off of Montana st. We had to shift lanes at the light to donate twenty dollars and I wanted to show my daughter its important to help your fellow man. There were two men on bicycles crossing (out of towners that flood in during the summer months). Suddenly one of the two men started shouting at me furiously because he was annoyed that my vehicle was at an angle impinging the crosswalk where the other cars were letting me through to make a right turn. He started to gesture at me wildly (he wasn't waving hello) and began to curse at me and my daughter loudly (including disparaging words regarding Montana locals). (In my family we don't curse so my daughter was upset about the encounter). He approached the side of my vehicle still shouting and gesturing aggressively and as he did I rolled down my window, without saying anything, just looking at him with my emerson CQC7 ready. The other man suddenly grabbed the aggressor and pulled him away saying at the same time, (to his buddy), he was in over his head. They scrambled off and after we donated to the rancher and his wife we continued on our way. Goes to show, always have your EDC.

Encounter Clarification:

I did not flash the knife, I don't believe in making threats. My emerson was folded and clipped in my pocket out of sight. I believe it was how I was looking at the guy, which his friend interpreted I was prepared to take action, (he was right).

On a lighter note, my daughter told my wife and family friends at dinner I watched the men like a Montana rattlesnake.

In hindsight, which is 20/20, I had progressed mentally from a combat mindset of condition yellow to condition orange.
 
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While I'm glad it turned out well and nobody got hurt, I think the smarter thing to do would have been to keep your windows rolled up, not engage the guy, and drive away as soon as possible.

Reason being, by flashing the knife, you escalated the encounter. In your case it was enough to end it, but it could also have gone another way, with the approaching hothead pulling a weapon of his own and having a go at you. At that point, you're trapped in an enclosed space, trying to fight off an attacker.

However, if you'd left the window up and the doors locked, you have a pretty decent barrier between you, and means to escape when possible.

Not trying to monday-morning quarterback things, just posing another side that you may not have thought of. In the end, we all have to do what we think is best at the time, and I'm glad it worked out for you & your daughter.
 
kingpin008 said:
While I'm glad it turned out well and nobody got hurt, I think the smarter thing to do would have been to keep your windows rolled up, not engage the guy, and drive away as soon as possible.

Reason being, by flashing the knife, you escalated the encounter. In your case it was enough to end it, but it could also have gone another way, with the approaching hothead pulling a weapon of his own and having a go at you. At that point, you're trapped in an enclosed space, trying to fight off an attacker.

However, if you'd left the window up and the doors locked, you have a pretty decent barrier between you, and means to escape when possible.

Not trying to monday-morning quarterback things, just posing another side that you may not have thought of. In the end, we all have to do what we think is best at the time, and I'm glad it worked out for you & your daughter.
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I did not flash the knife, I don't believe in making threats. My emerson was folded and clipped in my pocket out of sight. I believe it was how I was looking at the guy, which his friend interpreted I was prepared to take action, (he was right).

Upon thinking about what you said, my thought on leaving the windows up and the doors locked is that it could be viewed as a defensive posture that may demonstrate fear of being attacked to an adversary or predator and that wasn't the case here for me. I live by Coopers combat mindset and was in condition orange when the event abruptly ended.

Thanks for the feedback as my post needed clarification. Your response made me think about it more which was useful.
 
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While I totally agree that to not engage is THE smartest way to win a contest.

As was stated [and in my not so humble opinion ,true] to appear as if your afraid and trying to avoid a confrontation can lead to a MUCH greater violent response from the aggressor.

That is what I see and have learned,use what you like and fill your glass with your half of knowledge.
 
While I'm glad it turned out well and nobody got hurt, I think the smarter thing to do would have been to keep your windows rolled up, not engage the guy, and drive away as soon as possible.
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Perfect answer.

my thought on leaving the windows up and the doors locked is that it could be viewed as a defensive posture
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It is, and it SHOULD be.

that may demonstrate fear of being attacked to an adversary or predator and that wasn't the case here for me.
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Being afraid isn't at all the issue. Avoiding the conflict is the smart man's defense. Let the hot heads exhaust themselves, but don't allow them to push you into a confrontational response like rolling down your window and gving them the "hard-boiled cowboy" stare -- that's pretty unfathomable ... you just REMOVED a barrier to attack! You were in a two ton weapon (your vehicle) with mobility on your side. And you chose to open the path of attack and prepare to meet his threat with force?

That seems like a sub-optimal choice.

I live by Coopers combat mindset and was in condition orange when the event abruptly ended.
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Sure, but so what? You identified that you'd moved into a state of hightened awareness and focus. But, having identified this change, you didn't use that information very wisely.

Cooper's color code doesn't require you to meet potential aggression with a "stand your ground" response (especially with a knife ... yikes) if smarter, less legally risky, less likely to end in bloodshed options are available.

What would have happened next? What if he was irrational, insane, high on some substance, etc. and pressed his confrontation? What if he laid hands on you? At what point would you have gotten your brain in gear and gotten the vehicle in motion? Please tell us that you would not have sat still and been pushed until you'd knifed a man while you had the option of simply driving away.

(What if he brought more to the fight than a knife?)
 
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Polymath - thanks for the clarification. :)

As Sam said, keeping your windows up isn't at all a sign of fear - it's a great start towards warding off an attack, should an individual decide to initiate one. With windows up, you've got the advantage - anyone wanting to get at you has to go through the glass first, which isn't always as easy as it might seem.

Not trying to say that you did things wrong - any course of action that avoids violence is the right course. Just another viewpoint that might be worth considering. Once again, glad you & your daughter made it out unharmed. :)
 
Smart thing to do is to not give money to pan-handlers, particularly from a motor vehicle. It's a recipe for accidents and worse. And it's not a good way to give to charity.

It doesn't sound like the obnoxious rider did anything more than gesture and yell. The response should probably have been an apology and a smile. Or better yet just drive away. Sticks and stones rules apply. Cursing is not a weapon, and under NO circumstances justifies the use of force.

Besides, I'm not really sure what the plan was. If the rider pursues, just drive off. What exactly is he going to do to you?

It sounds to me like a clash of cultures more than a self defense situation. In a lot of cities it's standard practice for motorists, pedestrians and cyclists to scream and gesture at each other. Cyclists sometimes have to make a lot of noise to avoid getting run down, because believe me outside polite Montana cars will go right over you. That's one reason I think a disarming smile and apology could have defused the whole situation.
 
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Cooper's color code doesn't require you to meet potential aggression with a "stand your ground" response (especially with a knife ... yikes) if smarter, less legally risky, less likely to end in bloodshed options are available.
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Exactly. I find it interesting that you won't cuss in front of your daughter yet you will let her potentially see you slash somebody up with a knife. You didn't have to meet the aggressor in this instance. He's on a bike - your in a car.
 
Cosmoline said:
Smart thing to do is to not give money to pan-handlers, particularly from a motor vehicle. It's a recipe for accidents and worse. And it's not a good way to give to charity.

It doesn't sound like the obnoxious rider did anything more than gesture and yell. The response should probably have been an apology and a smile. Or better yet just drive away. Sticks and stones rules apply. Cursing is not a weapon, and under NO circumstances justifies the use of force.

Besides, I'm not really sure what the plan was. If the rider pursues, just drive off. What exactly is he going to do to you?

It sounds to me like a clash of cultures more than a self defense situation. In a lot of cities it's standard practice for motorists, pedestrians and cyclists to scream and gesture at each other. Cyclists sometimes have to make a lot of noise to avoid getting run down, because believe me outside polite Montana cars will go right over you. That's one reason I think a disarming smile and apology could have defused the whole situation.
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It was very unexpected and over the top by the man on the bike, perhaps he was drunk. At first I thought he was looking at something else because he was giving the finger straight over his head to something in the sky. It was only when he started to scream (yes he was screaming, not shouting) and gesture with broad sweeping movements of his arms that I realized this was to do with me (or the car for all I know maybe he didn't like trucks). The cross walk wasn't even blocked I was just touching the edge of the white stripes and they had plenty of space, which they eventually did traverse when the cross walk indicator changed to proceed. The other fellow didn't say anything (didn't even look at me) until his friend approached the car door. The way the man's face was contorting I thought there was something else wrong with him. He looked comical except for the seriousness of his words, many of which were slurred. My daughter asked me after what was wrong with the guy. His excessive and expressively violent response was not consistent with the situation. Perhaps the guy had a bad day before this, yet that is not my concern. When I gave money to the rancher I took the car off the rode and walked over to him (and of course that is not the only method I give to charity). I am also the first person to wave sorry to another motorist if I make a mistake. If I had smiled and waved at this guy I believe it would have angered him further. This was not a normal interaction, i.e. the guy was acting as an agressive person behaving as if he was enraged.
 
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Ledgehammer said:
Exactly. I find it interesting that you won't cuss in front of your daughter yet you will let her potentially see you slash somebody up with a knife. You didn't have to meet the aggressor in this instance. He's on a bike - your in a car.
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I see your point (and the other posts as well), about the car of course and it makes good sense and under different circumstances I hope I would have taken that alternative. However this was different, upon reflection I was boxed in by traffic (moving cross traffic in front, cars on either side and rear). This event was also unusual in the extreme and the aggressor was rapidly closing with the vehicle. Like a charging bull in the demonstrated attitude. Lowering the window had an effect on dampening his trajectory and of course his friend, he didn't expect me to potentially counterattack. I had the sense I did not want him close to the side of the vehicle due to his demeanor and approach. I am not a "slasher" and have training in the use of the emerson for its various purposes, which are not necessarily all lethal. Again, my vehicle could not move without possibly colliding with traffic, i.e. the two men on bikes were crossing with the light. I sensed no option to egress without colliding with a motorist, either in the intersection or behind me and I wanted to keep focus on the guys hands as he rapidly closed with my vehicle.

This discussion and your thoughts and comments has been extremely useful to me since it has helped me to review the entire event (similar to an after action) and possible options I did not consider at the time. Given the circumstances with being boxed in (this is important because much of the discussion has centered on driving away, upon review that was not a clear option due to traffic), a potentially disturbed person closing on the vehicle (with a possible intent to hammer at the windows or the vehicle (or me), would terrify my daughter), my own background, skill and knowledge, I feel the only thing I "might" have done differently is exited the vehicle to be in a stronger posture to meet the aggressor. My instinct to stay in vehicle and open the window had more to do with my daughter being left alone all things considered. If the aggressor had pursued his attack through the open window he would not have been in a strong position for a direct response. Notwithstanding, from a legal perspective the aggressor upon pressing an attack would have ultimately entered my vehicle via the window and the use of force in defense of an occupied structure per Montana law applies.
 
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I love MT!

I occasionally visit Montana to see family (Missoula, Anaconda and Billings). I've met these city slicker types that come out to "get away from it all" and they bring their rudeness with them. I always get an amused smile when these hotheads spill their vile attitude, they've always moved on when they realize its not intimidating anyone. It shows the quality of their character when they act that way in front of children. Ive most often seen this behaviour in resteraunts.

Since you were still in your truck, your avenue of escape was still open. If they presented a weapon, run em over (if they were still blocking you). Just about everyone I know out there carries a gun, only a fool would attack someone else. Half the time, long guns are in the back window, its kind of like Alaska. All the locals are usually so friendly to me, but I'm country at heart and blend real well.
 
MyGreenGuns said:
I occasionally visit Montana to see family (Missoula, Anaconda and Billings). I've met these city slicker types that come out to "get away from it all" and they bring their rudeness with them. I always get an amused smile when these hotheads spill their vile attitude, they've always moved on when they realize its not intimidating anyone. It shows the quality of their character when they act that way in front of children. Ive most often seen this behaviour in resteraunts.

Since you were still in your truck, your avenue of escape was still open. If they presented a weapon, run em over (if they were still blocking you). Just about everyone I know out there carries a gun, only a fool would attack someone else. Half the time, long guns are in the back window, its kind of like Alaska. All the locals are usually so friendly to me, but I'm country at heart and blend real well.
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In the past I have prepared mentally for using the vehicle in the manner you and others suggested. When this event transpired it was not clear that I was the focus of his ire until just before he started to sweep diagonally toward the vehicle, i.e. he had passed the front of the vehicle in the cross walk and made a decision to turn to his 9 and hence toward the left side of the vehicle. He was crossing about six yards in front of the vehicle when this event occurred.

The more I think about this the more I believe this guy was mentally disturbed. One point I did not mention earlier is the age of both individuals. I estimate their ages to be in the late 30s to mid 40s and not in good physical condition. Also the clothing of the aggressor was a very loose and dark blue t-shirt (that needed laundering) with black knee length shorts. The bicycles were older models and did not appear useful for long distant riding. The aggressor's bike had no top bar.
 
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I am glad you and your daughter made it home to tell the story in one piece - so you did good.

For me the issue would have been with my child in the car. I have zero tolerance for stupidity when my kids are around. Keeping the windows up and door locked would have been my first action, followed by making sure my ccw was not hampered by anything.

I believe it was the first chl holder shooting in texas - a road range incident where the shooter had to protect himself because the aggressor was leaning thru the driver side window attempting to assault the man. Since that one incident I learned to roll up the window and go from there esp when every second counts.

Of course now I happen to be the shortest/lightest man in the house so I guess I did good to get them to this point lol Now I feel like the old loony tunes cartoons with the little dog leading all the big dogs around looking for that darn cat lol.
 
Country folk tend to confront and go eye to eye where city folk are more into civilized behavior which is done by a loud mouth and threat stance. I do not know from where you come (roots) but I do understand your actions.

The laws are the same for city and country but the local sheriffs sometimes are certainly different with their interpretation and writing of the after action report.

In a country kinda way you did the "man up" thing; set your line in the sand and through body posture and eyes let it be known you were ready to confront and defend you and yours.

Problem with the man thing IMO is it can get you killed or worse yet involved with some unsympathetic law enforcement.

Funny since having my CHL I am 10 times the pansy I ever was before. I will walk a mile to avoid any type of confrontation. I know somewhere inside me resides the sheep dog but someone would have to dig through a lot of sheep droppings to awake him.

I am just so glad that nothing further happened to you and your daughter.

Once 10,000 years ago my daughter was with me and we were confronted by a guy in a parking lot wanting money. I told him sorry no money. The guy would not shut up and if I remember right he pressed his case because because my daughter was with me. I ended up throwing my hat on the ground and squaring off against the guy. He at that point knew he had crossed a line and said something to the effect he did not mean to fight or for me to get mad he just really needed some money. I told him I was past mad and he could leave or we can fight. To this day on occasion my daughter tells that story. Was I right in my actions....probably not on so many levels and so many lawyers or Judges opinions..... maybe it would have been easier to ignore his mouth and attitude; certainly safer....but I did what I needed to do at the time and it worked out....nothing broken and no bloodshed....maybe I should have called the cops and reported the incident; had them hold my shaking hand as we filled out the report?? Maybe would have helped someone else later on from having to confront the little psycho?? Hind sight? Monday quarterbacking? Rear seat driving? ...... Sometimes, as we all know, there is the right, the prudent, the smart and the law; what we chose to do depends on the circumstance our thought process during the event and our life's experience/schooling. You know in your heart if your choice for the moment was correct.

THR will give you a few more things to think about if there is a next time...It is like going to university without the price of tuition; some of the THR guys are dedicated and really good with their knowledge and info. Never to late to learn.
 
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Sky said:
Country folk tend to confront and go eye to eye where city folk are more into civilized behavior which is done by a loud mouth and threat stance. I do not know from where you come (roots) but I do understand your actions.
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Your right about the kind of person I am, my friends call me an old Montana boy, like them, (although I am originally from New Mexico) and my wife and kids call me Pa. Like my friends, I like to hunt, fish and ride a horse (including bulldogging occasionally) and don't respond well to loud mouth outsiders. When confronted we don't talk, we watch and respond if necessary and don't back down. I can tell an outsider or someone who lives in the city because they like to jaw to much. My family has a couple of pistols but we don't carry them, except maybe while hunting, maybe. That being said, I am confident with my emerson and I have known how to use it in many different ways for decades, including as a closed striking device if that is what is required. We don't see the need for new laws or government intervention to "take care of us". We take care of ourselves. The bottom line is I ended the confrontation. If I had to do it again, had no way to drive away, my family or property was in jeopardy and was effectively cornered, well there is no question in my mind and Montana law supports defending ourselves (a convenience not a necessity). If you go to Lincoln and eat at the restaurant, take a mind what is written on the chalk board, it says much about us Montanans.
 
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"Country folk tend to confront and go eye to eye where city folk are more into civilized behavior which is done by a loud mouth and threat stance."

There are plenty of people in the city and country who act like loud mouthed bafoons. Just like there are plenty of people in both who look for ways to try and justify a sense of superiority to the other.
 
Sky said:
THR will give you a few more things to think about if there is a next time...It is like going to university without the price of tuition; some of the THR guys are dedicated and really good with their knowledge and info. Never to late to learn.
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Thats why I did the post and the folks talkin here helped. I like THR and the people on it, it is the last best forum IMO.
 
@Justinj - nicely done sir. lol

met these city slicker types that come out to "get away from it all
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I have a funny feeling the drunk guy on the ladies beach cruiser wasnt on holiday from his job at the law firm in the big city...

Like some have said already I'm glad nobody got hurt, but there were several mistakes made in this situation.
 
we saw a down and out rancher that was asking for money with his wife off of Montana st
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I can tell you ain't from Philly or New Jersey. :D

Always be ready.
 
buck00 said:
Always be ready.
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Yep. If the guy had been a griz acting this way on my land I would be posting on a different area of the THR forum, including pics of my Winchester 375 H&H, which I shoot with iron sights only (if I could figure out how to do that here).
 
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Ledgehammer said:
Like some have said already I'm glad nobody got hurt, but there were several mistakes made in this situation.
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Well I got a worse thing now to think about besides this crosswalk thing. My wife bought this new fangled "natural" dog shampoo for the kids new shepherd puppy. Personally, I didn't see any need to wash the thing. But for whatever reason, this natural dog shampoo made the puppy (a male) smell like a female and the rest of my dogs are all after it now.
 
Avoid it>evade it> escape it>deal with it.

Avoidance was clearly unavailable. You reduced your chances of evasion when you opened your window, potentially endangering yourself and your child. Considering the difficulties of maintaining control of a vehicle while dealing with a violent attack, especially if you have an automatic transmission, the danger to others may have been increased, too. You describe the cyclist going off at about a six yard separation and closing as you opened your window. The Tueller drill usually posits a knife wielding attacker going for a standing defender with a holstered handgun. With separations less than seven yards, the defender cannot count on finishing uncut. You were disadvantaged, compared to the standard drill, by having to go for a folding knife clipped to your pocket, possibly with interference from your seat belt, and by being seated hard by the door. Had the cyclist been whack enough to actually attack, he needn't even have had a knife, a stout pen or mechanical pencil would have ruined your day and your daughter's.

I think you were lucky. The odds were long and in your favor, such events rarely go beyond display, but such events are frequent enough that we hear of far too many that end badly. I am glad you were lucky.



Edit to add: Ooops! I left out the escape part, but so did you.
 
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Yes sorry for the implied demographic remark, it was not meant that way.

When growing up if we wanted to take our dates out for a nice evening we would go to Dallas. If we wanted to get our butts beat we went to FT. Worth!! Seemed to always work that way!!

City kids knew where to go and stay out of or find trouble in their domain; many were certainly better trained fighters in a street brawl.

We country bumpkins knew how to hunt and fish and had tougher hands where stickers never seemed to get stuck. It is just a matter of doing what you have to do in the environment you grow up in. Sorry if it sounded like anyone who had running water and an indoor toilet was somehow inferior; it was certainly not meant that way but I can see how some might have been perturbed. Apologize sincerely. Hey we had running water and a bathroom or two inside also!! It is hard to predict sometimes how we will act in a given situation when caught by surprise.
 
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Chuck Dye said:
Avoid it>evade it> escape it>deal with it.

Avoidance was clearly unavailable. You reduced your chances of evasion when you opened your window, potentially endangering yourself and your child. Considering the difficulties of maintaining control of a vehicle while dealing with a violent attack, especially if you have an automatic transmission, the danger to others may have been increased, too. You describe the cyclist going off at about a six yard separation and closing as you opened your window. The Tueller drill usually posits a knife wielding attacker going for a standing defender with a holstered handgun. With separations less than seven yards, the defender cannot count on finishing uncut. You were disadvantaged, compared to the standard drill, by having to go for a folding knife clipped to your pocket, possibly with interference from your seat belt, and by being seated hard by the door. Had the cyclist been whack enough to actually attack, he needn't even have had a knife, a stout pen or mechanical pencil would have ruined your day and your daughter's.

I think you were lucky. The odds were long and in your favor, such events rarely go beyond display, but such events are frequent enough that we hear of far too many that end badly. I am glad you were lucky.



Edit to add: Ooops! I left out the escape part, but so did you.
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Well you all have convinced and if this sort of thing ever happens again I will keep the window closed. I would appreciate some specific advice besides keeping the window closed. Also remember I was effectively boxed in and the aggressor was not open to friendly overtures like a normal person. I am very good with the emerson and know how to use it in non-lethal ways (for striking) and prefer not to carry a pistol EDC (when we travel outside of where we live we carry one or more pistols but this is not usually the norm). Thanks for any good forthcoming advice, I am listening.
 
PolymathPioneer said:
Well you all have convinced and if this sort of thing ever happens again I will keep the window closed. I would appreciate some specific advice besides keeping the window closed. Also remember I was effectively boxed in and the aggressor was not open to friendly overtures like a normal person. I am very good with the emerson and know how to use it in non-lethal ways (for striking) and prefer not to carry a pistol EDC (when we travel outside of where we live we carry one or more pistols but this is not usually the norm). Thanks for any good forthcoming advice, I am listening.
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This a powerful reminder to all of us that situational awareness includes being aware of the position that you are putting yourself into. Just a change to the space between cars can make a huge difference in the available responses to danger.
 
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