dprice3844444
member
Click here: http://www.osha.gov/ooc/citations/IllinoisGunWorksLtd_110282_0608_12.pdf
Click here: The Volokh Conspiracy » OSHA targets shooting range
Click here: The Volokh Conspiracy » OSHA targets shooting range
osha targeting gun ranges
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blarby
Member
All of them, or just this one ?
This link is to a complaint against one range from the looks of it.... and from what I read, its not without merit.
OSHA gets most of their "tip offs" from employees or recent former employees.
Regardless of how they got the info to look in, they found a lot wrong here....
http://www.osha.gov/Publications/osha2098.pdf
So, the range either had an Incident where OSHA was notified, had an employee complaint....or ???? Rahm and his buddies have enough ways to go after these businesses...OSHA is a crappy way to do it.....Mainly due to the fact that if you are following the laws regarding worker safety- which are plainly published- they can't do anything to your business
A range isn't really a high-hazard work environment like a construction site in regards to the number of incidents vs hours worked...so I doubt it was random.
This link is to a complaint against one range from the looks of it.... and from what I read, its not without merit.
OSHA gets most of their "tip offs" from employees or recent former employees.
Regardless of how they got the info to look in, they found a lot wrong here....
http://www.osha.gov/Publications/osha2098.pdf
So, the range either had an Incident where OSHA was notified, had an employee complaint....or ???? Rahm and his buddies have enough ways to go after these businesses...OSHA is a crappy way to do it.....Mainly due to the fact that if you are following the laws regarding worker safety- which are plainly published- they can't do anything to your business
A range isn't really a high-hazard work environment like a construction site in regards to the number of incidents vs hours worked...so I doubt it was random.
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I agree with blarby.
A single case is not "targeting gun ranges". There's nothing unique about a range getting a visit from OSHA when an employee calls and complains. There's also nothing strange when a range gets a visit because a state OSHA has started an initiative on a particular issue, like noise or lead, that might be applicable to ranges. I've worked with proactive ranges before in helping them address these sorts of issues and this looks like the sort of problems you'd see at a range that doesn't do a good job of protecting their employees.
I'd challenge a couple of these citations (really, picking up a casing buys a skin exposure citation???), but the majority of them look like typical violations you'd find where the employer didn't realize they were exposing employees or how to prevent/address exposure. When you see down in the weeds citations like these instead of simple program level citations the employer typically fought the inspectors and forced them to get a subpoena to gain entry. The range owner should request a conference, implement a corrective action plan to prevent employee exposures and negotiate the fines down dependent upon how well they implement their corrective action plan.
A single case is not "targeting gun ranges". There's nothing unique about a range getting a visit from OSHA when an employee calls and complains. There's also nothing strange when a range gets a visit because a state OSHA has started an initiative on a particular issue, like noise or lead, that might be applicable to ranges. I've worked with proactive ranges before in helping them address these sorts of issues and this looks like the sort of problems you'd see at a range that doesn't do a good job of protecting their employees.
I'd challenge a couple of these citations (really, picking up a casing buys a skin exposure citation???), but the majority of them look like typical violations you'd find where the employer didn't realize they were exposing employees or how to prevent/address exposure. When you see down in the weeds citations like these instead of simple program level citations the employer typically fought the inspectors and forced them to get a subpoena to gain entry. The range owner should request a conference, implement a corrective action plan to prevent employee exposures and negotiate the fines down dependent upon how well they implement their corrective action plan.
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One_Jackal
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From my experience in construction attitude has a lot to do with citations. If one is cooperative and receptive to the inspectors comments one can turn citations into warnings. One thing that saved me a lot of citations was to let the crew take a break until the inspection is finished. Gun ranges can employ similar action plans. If you run any business that OSHA is likely to target you have to have an inspection strategy in place. All of your lead employees must be aware and prepared for a safety inspection.
alsaqr
Member
The IL Department of Health asked OSHA to inspect that firing range. The inflammatory story about that range originated with David Codra. Codrea conveniently neglected to mention its an indoor shooting range with high levels of airborne lead contamination. What OSHA found is not surprising. i've been to indoor ranges where everything was covered with lead dust.
The inspection of one firing range at the request of a state agency does not justify the accusation that OSHA is "targeting gun ranges". The owner of that range should have seen this one coming.
The inspection of one firing range at the request of a state agency does not justify the accusation that OSHA is "targeting gun ranges". The owner of that range should have seen this one coming.
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Carl N. Brown
Member
This is the shooting range closest to Chicago. Chicago requires range training to get a handgun permit, but does not allow shooting ranges in Chicago. Catch 22. So, when I heard OSHA had dumped a ton of bricks on them, my first thought was, this has to be gun politics.
I have read the PDF of the OSHA complaints. I don't know how much is legitimate complaints, or even how to recognize (fill in name) boilerplate BS. The complaint about the instructor retrieving a cartridge from the lead-contaminated floor without gloves struck me as duh. Some of the complaints though seem both specific (sound proofing the shooting booths) and probably valid. If the complaints are valid, it sounds like someone is running a range with a minimum investment in basic noise abatement and lead pollution control (just my impression and conditional).
ADDED: the link to the Volokh Conspiracy discussion is: http://www.volokh.com/2012/06/23/osha-targets-shooting-range/
I have read the PDF of the OSHA complaints. I don't know how much is legitimate complaints, or even how to recognize (fill in name) boilerplate BS. The complaint about the instructor retrieving a cartridge from the lead-contaminated floor without gloves struck me as duh. Some of the complaints though seem both specific (sound proofing the shooting booths) and probably valid. If the complaints are valid, it sounds like someone is running a range with a minimum investment in basic noise abatement and lead pollution control (just my impression and conditional).
ADDED: the link to the Volokh Conspiracy discussion is: http://www.volokh.com/2012/06/23/osha-targets-shooting-range/
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But momentum builds from one.
If the complaints are legit then so be it. I have seen some pretty stupid stuff, I can't imagine all the inspectors have seen. I have also seen the stupid stuff which is 'required' because management is fearful of OSHA. (steel toe boots, hard hats, vests while in an office building while construction was going on at the other end ... like we'd accidentally walk past all the caution tape)
Can you imagine having to practice while wearing a bunny suit to avoid contamination?
If I was running an indoor range, I certainly would post - no children and no pregnant or 'could be' pregnant persons allowed signs.
And encourage people to wash after shooting.
If the complaints are legit then so be it. I have seen some pretty stupid stuff, I can't imagine all the inspectors have seen. I have also seen the stupid stuff which is 'required' because management is fearful of OSHA. (steel toe boots, hard hats, vests while in an office building while construction was going on at the other end ... like we'd accidentally walk past all the caution tape)
Can you imagine having to practice while wearing a bunny suit to avoid contamination?
If I was running an indoor range, I certainly would post - no children and no pregnant or 'could be' pregnant persons allowed signs.
And encourage people to wash after shooting.
The problem with this is there are no small ranges that can keep up with ever evolving rules regarding lead. This will undoubtedly be a tool used by those who "care" to go after small, less well funded operations. If you think this is simply a one case situation, you're dreaming, again, still. This same deal has taken place here in NY. Enjoy. But by all means, deny.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
So I looked up the conspiracy link in the OP and the first hit was here...
http://www.nraila.org/news-issues/in-the-news/2012/6/kopel-osha-targets-shooting-range.aspx
...which did have a link to here...
http://www.volokh.com/2012/06/23/osha-targets-shooting-range/
I don't know about any conspiracies from this, but I liked the paranoid closing comment..
The claim is made that some infractions have little or nothing to do with employee safety. I didn't see any that actually fell into that category. What I saw was the author complaining about things that could negatively affect safety that he didn't want to be bothered with.
If folks don't like the OSHA standards, they should fight OSHA on the validity of the standards. Suggesting this is some sort of play against gun ranges (based on a sample of one) is stupid. That suggesting OSHA is in the wrong for doing its job is stupid. Just because gun ranges are our out pet interest does not mean there is a conspiracy against them just because OSHA does their job.
Somebody please stop the paranoid delusions.
http://www.nraila.org/news-issues/in-the-news/2012/6/kopel-osha-targets-shooting-range.aspx
...which did have a link to here...
http://www.volokh.com/2012/06/23/osha-targets-shooting-range/
I don't know about any conspiracies from this, but I liked the paranoid closing comment..
The claim is made that some infractions have little or nothing to do with employee safety. I didn't see any that actually fell into that category. What I saw was the author complaining about things that could negatively affect safety that he didn't want to be bothered with.
If folks don't like the OSHA standards, they should fight OSHA on the validity of the standards. Suggesting this is some sort of play against gun ranges (based on a sample of one) is stupid. That suggesting OSHA is in the wrong for doing its job is stupid. Just because gun ranges are our out pet interest does not mean there is a conspiracy against them just because OSHA does their job.
Somebody please stop the paranoid delusions.
Yes, we are all paranoid, delusional, and stupid. We got it.
I disagree. Many small ranges cannot possibly keep pace with evolving environmental laws. Whether it is OSHA, environmental agencies at the state level or the fed level. We've been seeing a lot more of this here in the northeast. I believe it is a trend that has everything to do with shooting sports. These kinds of actions will also be used in the push to eliminate lead ammunition. Action that has clearly begun on many fronts.
But what do I know. I'm stupid, paranoid and delusional.
I disagree. Many small ranges cannot possibly keep pace with evolving environmental laws. Whether it is OSHA, environmental agencies at the state level or the fed level. We've been seeing a lot more of this here in the northeast. I believe it is a trend that has everything to do with shooting sports. These kinds of actions will also be used in the push to eliminate lead ammunition. Action that has clearly begun on many fronts.
But what do I know. I'm stupid, paranoid and delusional.
dprice3844444
member
guys,if you would,email or fax the info to your local shooting places so they are aware and can be prepared
Carl N. Brown
Member
Like Ralphie, in A Christmas Story? All pink with floppy ears? It boggles the imagination.
Ranges can easily stay in compliance with OSHA and EPA if they bother to learn and follow the rules in protecting their employees and the public.
Help in doing this is available from NSSF and OSHA through an alliance intended to help ranges meet the basic requirements. http://www.osha.gov/dcsp/alliances/nasr_saami/nasr_saami.html
Many ranges have members/customers that work in the environmental or safety fields that help the ranges meet the basic requirements while others hire consultants in those specialties that build their programs for them to keep their employees safe.
I help local ranges meet these requirements and when a lead initiative came about a couple of years ago the OSHA inspector that paid them a visit told one range that they had a very complete and effective lead exposure program. These folks had taken the responsibility for their employees seriously and it showed.
The IL range has some serious problems even if half the citations are correct.
Help in doing this is available from NSSF and OSHA through an alliance intended to help ranges meet the basic requirements. http://www.osha.gov/dcsp/alliances/nasr_saami/nasr_saami.html
Many ranges have members/customers that work in the environmental or safety fields that help the ranges meet the basic requirements while others hire consultants in those specialties that build their programs for them to keep their employees safe.
I help local ranges meet these requirements and when a lead initiative came about a couple of years ago the OSHA inspector that paid them a visit told one range that they had a very complete and effective lead exposure program. These folks had taken the responsibility for their employees seriously and it showed.
The IL range has some serious problems even if half the citations are correct.
Ole Humpback
Member
Please see post 8 for my comments on this.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=665004
That pretty much sums it up.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=665004
That pretty much sums it up.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
There is no reason small range should not be able to keep pace with the evollving environmental laws. If they can't, then they should not be in business. Shooting sports may be out pet past time or occupation, but that does not mean we don't have to comply with the law. Every business is fraught with aspects that can affect it negatively, positively, and have no effect. Such things are the cost of doing business.
In this day and age of internet news, groups that watch lawmakers, etc., businesses now have more opportunity than ever to provide input into proposed law changes that may affect them. That a business does not know about such laws is a failure of mgmt. It is part of the situational awareness of busines operation.
CoRoMo
Member
Ever-expanding regulation = ever-expanding costs to stay in business = higher prices = fewer customers = ???
It seems so easy to champion regulations. It's advocating for the employee after all, a lot of times to the detriment of the guy who employs him.
One of the guys who founded Home Depot, 30-some-odd years ago, recently said that, nothing like their company will ever be possible again. No, not with today's ever-burdensome regulations. There is a point at which the level of regulation makes for an impossible atmosphere in which to run a business.
That's why so many businesses have been fleeing states like New York, California, etc. for new locations like Texas and Colorado.
I know a little something about running a business, fighting to stay in compliance across the board, and hoping for a profit at the end of it all... all the while my competition can operate freely, well short of total compliance, and they can wipe the floor with me in regards to prices.
Customers, for some reason, don't really care whether our fire extinguishers are tested regularly. It never fails, they ONLY want to know what my service is going to cost them, as they call around shopping for someone in my industry.
It seems so easy to champion regulations. It's advocating for the employee after all, a lot of times to the detriment of the guy who employs him.
One of the guys who founded Home Depot, 30-some-odd years ago, recently said that, nothing like their company will ever be possible again. No, not with today's ever-burdensome regulations. There is a point at which the level of regulation makes for an impossible atmosphere in which to run a business.
That's why so many businesses have been fleeing states like New York, California, etc. for new locations like Texas and Colorado.
I know a little something about running a business, fighting to stay in compliance across the board, and hoping for a profit at the end of it all... all the while my competition can operate freely, well short of total compliance, and they can wipe the floor with me in regards to prices.
Customers, for some reason, don't really care whether our fire extinguishers are tested regularly. It never fails, they ONLY want to know what my service is going to cost them, as they call around shopping for someone in my industry.
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Increasing regulation of business is an important topic (although not necessarily here), but it is also a separate topic.CoRoMo said:
In the case of this OSHA citation, these regulations have been around for a while. So there's nothing really new here. Any range that can't/doesn't comply with those regulations invites the unpleasant attentions of the regulators.
SorenityNow
Member
Il gun works!! Yes i have shot hear. its about 5 miles from home and $10 you can shoot all day. with that said i perfer driving 60 miles and payin 20 dollars an hr at a different range. this place is a dump.. people actually where face masks in there when they shoot.. after being there just an hr, i was tasting lead in my throat the rest of the day
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