Reloading mishaps on the way?

Perhaps, but probably not. Changing information online is cheap. Reprinting manuals is expensive. Paper manuals last a long time, and publishers/authors know that. The level of QC is likely to be higher.

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No, not at all. No more quality control goes into it because in most cases its the EXACT same data. Hodgdon online data vs. a printed manual? Speer and Alliant? Its the same. The manual may have MORE loads, different bullets, etc. Thats great to have. Many people like that. To think its better for some reason because its printed is false.

There are many good questions to be asked and answered, but there are times when it is better advice to tell someone too read the basics, rather than to give them a small piece of knowledge, knowing that they don't have the rest needed to safely load.

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Thats all available from reputable sources online, if someone chose to search.

I have not found a WWW that has multiple paragraphs and pictures for each step of the process....I checked out a few YouTubes after I had been reloading and prolly 60% are shocking and make me cringe.

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There are many online tutorials that are geared towards that. They come from reputable sources. Again, a search engine will find these easily, if someone were inclined.

. I think, though, that many people are just diving into reloading with a dangerous level of ignorance, and wonder if anyone's either heard of an increased amount of mishaps relating to improperly-loaded ammunition or anticipates it.

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I haven't noticed or heard of any bad mishaps lately. I am sure that anyone wanting to get into loading of ammo is also interested in keeping his eyes and body intact. Reloading is not rocket science and if we can observe a few safety rules we should enjoy the hobby for many years with no serious problems.

Yes, I am one of those who will say, "Get a manual first and read it." I have several. You should see my first one, all tattered and missing cover. Ya, they get used. I have never regretted buying a manual. I guess if you can download one and print it out and place it on the bench that works too. I have a three ring binder with pages of stuff from the net in it. I will use stuff from the bullet manufacturers and powder companies, but nothing from unknown sources goes in my book. Just be careful what your sources are.

Probably the most important thing in a manual are the rules of safety. I think that should be everyone's first priority.

Yes, the rules of safety are on the net too.

I gotta go burn some powder, need some brass to load.

Here are safety procedures from Speer.

Gun safety rules from Alliant.

That may be part of the reason the reading was so boring. It seemed to be common sense on the "safety" rules and many other parts.

this will add it up! some people should not own a screwdriver!!! and some of these posts. I just go back to it's never funny until somebody gets hurt!! I'm sorry not PC!! THEY cant think on there own feet THEY JUST go to the key board until they see what they want. THEY think that load will make them some super shooter. These guys have no clue that for the most part, that your tweaking the load and gun. THE next thing is WHY would you pay 30 bucks for loading mans from bullet manufactures when you have the net to go to powder manufactures for FREE. 30+ YEARS LOADING and alot you guys don't need screwdrivers.

this will add it up! some people should not own a screwdriver!!! and some of these posts. I just go back to it's never funny until somebody gets hurt!! I'm sorry not PC!! THEY cant think on there own feet THEY JUST go to the key board until they see what they want. THEY think that load will make them some super shooter. These guys have no clue that for the most part, that your tweaking the load and gun. THE next thing is WHY would you pay 30 bucks for loading mans from bullet manufactures when you have the net to go to powder manufactures for FREE. 30+ YEARS LOADING and alot you guys don't need screwdrivers.

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I'm not sure exactly what you are trying to say here. Maybe you could clarify for all of us because quite frankly I find your entire post confusing. A little angry too.

boommer said:

this will add it up! some people should not own a screwdriver!!! and some of these posts. I just go back to it's never funny until somebody gets hurt!! I'm sorry not PC!! THEY cant think on there own feet THEY JUST go to the key board until they see what they want. THEY think that load will make them some super shooter. These guys have no clue that for the most part, that your tweaking the load and gun. THE next thing is WHY would you pay 30 bucks for loading mans from bullet manufactures when you have the net to go to powder manufactures for FREE. 30+ YEARS LOADING and alot you guys don't need screwdrivers.

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Feel better?

I think it is great this many people are getting into shooting/reloading. Sure we will have some growing pains but for the most part it is positives all over.

So one or five posters have done/said some dumb stuff...still better than the average by far. Think of the THOUSANDS of others that have read and posted on the forums that haven't made major dumb mistakes.

I am more worried about all the idiots out there that bought guns recently that really have no business with one. I think that if you got into reloading, chances are you are already ahead of the curve in the gun smarts department. It's a pretty intimidating hobby. It is way easier to buy a gun, a box of ammo, and pull the trigger. I just hope they have the common sense to use the safety, always treat it as loaded, and put it out of reach of children. That concerns me way more than the rush of new reloaders. And I am a new reloader myself. Consulted with an old timer, bought the equipment, read the manual before I even setup the press, and also watched a bunch of videos and read plenty of threads. Dipped my toes into .45acp first and after 1000+ rounds my first month I am hooked.

I'm just waiting for all that stuff being sold on ebay today that might show up in garage sales tomorrow at a cheaper price.

common sense ? and common sense !!!! NOT ANGRY HERE. There are some that need have there screwdriver taken away from them!! I'm sorry.

common sense ? and common sense !!!! NOT ANGRY HERE. There are some that need have there screwdriver taken away from them!! I'm sorry.

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You still dont make any sense. Why not just come out and say what you want to say?

edit:nevermind, I read through some of your other posts. its obvious. You like to use that screwdriver thing to insult people without adding anything meaningful to a conversation it seems.

ljnowell said:

Hate to be the one to break it to you, but thats where lots of paper manuals data comes from the "reputable powder manufacturers." You are just as likely to run into that problem with a paper manual as you are the manufacturers online data, thats fact.

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I heard about a misprint on a powder manufacturer's web site. It was fixed real fast, but it was there. Paper manuals are generally better vetted than web sites, which is reasonable since manuals are harder to edit once sold.

But shall we not get into a debate over right and wrong and what can and cannot happen (because we know mistakes can occur anywhere) and figure out how to minimize the risk to ourselves?

I suggest (and follow my own suggestion, too) pulling data from as many sources as I can and comparing them all to each other. Any that are not close to all the rest is suspect.

An adage I heard years ago might apply: "The man with one watch is certain what time it is. The man with two watches is never sure." To which I add, "The man with three (or more) has a basis for drawing a statistically valid conclusion." Or, "The more, the merrier."

This is the last you will hear from me on the "Web vs Print" question on this thread: Any source is worth accessing, and all sources should be vetted.

Lost Sheep

Hmm.. My understanding is that the goal of it all is to build loads tailored to the particular rifle.

A human analogy would be: I will eat just about anything, even scary foreign stuff that I can't identify even after being told what it is. While I don't like everything, quite a few things will bring a smile to my face.

My SO, on the other hand, doesn't like most meats and seafood unless they're fried, and finds scary foreign food... scary and not suitable for consumption. I haven't quite found a recipe that brings a smile to her face.

From what I've learned so far, aside from general guidance, most load data is only useful for safe operation with various components.

The fact that X's rifle Y with Z powder, P primer, D case, B bullet shoots U minutes of angle at T yards only really tells me that X found something that worked for his rifle.

--EDIT-- If X happened to be a multi-billion dollar organization and I took information from several such X's and found their results to be very close, and the set of Y, Z, P, D, and B was close to my interests, I could probably be safe in assuming that the same combination in my rifle would also be close and perhaps a suitable starting point for working up my own load based on theirs.


The things I'm interested in at the moment are the things I *probably won't ever test:

Assuming that min/max for IMR 3031 in a 308 case with a 180 grain bullet is 36/40 respectively, what happens when you load 30 grains? 29? 28? ..... 20? 18? (I know that at some point the bullet will not leave the barrel, but what else could go wrong?)

Assuming the same min/max, what happens when you load 41....48 in a heavy barreled bolt action rifle? (I know that, in theory, you could blow it up, but I have never heard of anyone blowing up a bolt gun before)

I'm not really interested in the overcharged stuff because I value lots of things, including my barrel, but the undercharged stuff seems fun for extra-cheap "Sure you can try my rifle" rounds.


*I'm a big fan of telling computers to do things I don't want to do, like turn a motor attached to a rifle I got for free or so located at the base of a valley in the middle of nowhere that pulls a trigger that drops a firing pin on a questionable round... all from the comfort of my vehicle several hundred yards away, while watching the results on my computer screen.

Some people say if you're gunna be stupid, you've got to be tough.. but these days it definitely doesn't hurt to be able to write some code and work a soldering iron.

Hello, Very interesting..and thought provoking posts! I guess in my case, I really taught myself how to reload in my very early teens, even before owning a centerfire firearm! My sister would check out from downtown library Phill Sharpes Complete Guide To Handloading..I just about wore that book out re-reading from cover to cover..Now I have three copies of my own & I still go back to it..dated? Sure..but the basics never go out of date.
I think I understand where Boomer is coming from. And the internet is partially to blame. It seems some people crave instant gratification..and if they have to sweat things out to find the answer, quickly become discoraged..or bored..would rather click on a web site and have someone tell them how..never learning for themselves the WHY. I have ran into this at work with apprentices..they will ask a question about something they know absolutly nothing about..thats ok..but then, when they get the answer..more times than not..they want to argue with you about it! And I have to agree with Boomer..there are some people who would be better off not owning a screwdriver (buggered screw heads on fine guns at G.S. are a good example) and certailny not something as potentially dangerous as handloading.

I understand what you mean but there are a few powders that should not be downloaded due to incosistent burn rates. Is it dangerous? possibly. Is it against the advice of most people? Maybe. Thats all your call. But going by the data online and from powder manufacturers is a good basis. As well as the manuals. YMMV

WinchesterAA said:

Hmm.. My understanding is that the goal of it all is to build loads tailored to the particular rifle.

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That is one of the really great things. But most reloaders got into it to save money over the retail cost of store-bought ammunition, at least, at first. Many progressed from there to tuned loads for accuracy, customized loads for particular purposes, getting ammunition not offered by the major ammo companies, for the sheer pride of having done it themselves or for the feeling of independence from the retailers' shelves.

WinchesterAA said:

From what I've learned so far, aside from general guidance, most load data is only useful for safe operation with various components.

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Look up S.A.A.M.I (Sporting Arms Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute) and read their mission statement. Guns and ammo are VERY uniform across most makers in any given calibers/chamberings, with some well-known exceptions.

WinchesterAA said:

(I know that at some point the bullet will not leave the barrel, but what else could go wrong?)

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Lots. One of the scariest and most argued over is S.E.E. (Secondary Explosive Effect). Some deny it exists. I have read credible reports of charges of propellant with lots of empty space in the case having catastrophic results.

WinchesterAA said:

*I'm a big fan of telling computers to do things I don't want to do, like turn a motor attached to a rifle I got for free or so located at the base of a valley in the middle of nowhere that pulls a trigger that drops a firing pin on a questionable round... all from the comfort of my vehicle several hundred yards away, while watching the results on my computer screen.

Some people say if you're gunna be stupid, you've got to be tough.. but these days it definitely doesn't hurt to be able to write some code and work a soldering iron.

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Before computers, you could lay down behind a log fifty feet from a gun you tied to an old tire and pull a string tied to the trigger.

I am not going to try that with any firearm that I bought with my own money.

Lost Sheep

Thanks for your input, Lost Sheep. I have no expectation of saving any significant amount of money just because I reload some stuff. My equation is a little more complicated, taking things like enjoyment per bang into account.

For example, if I am 100 times more satisfied after 15 rounds than I used to be after 150 rounds, and the 15 rounds fired were over a span of 4 and a half hours vs the same amount of time for 150 rounds, then obviously I gained a lot...

That would only happen if I was hitting exactly where I was aiming, at some pretty long distances, though. Missing entirely, or being all over the place, would be unsatisfying and prompt further research and considerations, which could involve spending more money.



Links for those interested in S.E.E and SAAMI:
Light load dangers from people who write like they're not completely full of hot air

NPO info for SAAMI including mission statement


My statement about general guidance had less to do with manufacturer adherence to international standards, and more to do with my slightly less common rifle.

I haven't come across much load data for a 308 cal bullet flying through a 20" heavy barrel with 1/10" twist. 24"? all day long. Not sure, yet, how much of a difference 4" makes, but I assume that loads for a 24" barrel with the same twist rate would probably yield something close to what I'd get with a 20" barrel, so it should be OK to start at a lower point and work my way up to something very useful.

So as a newer reloader who has learned a lot from the web (yes I read my lyman manual, father in law who reloaded in the past & a local reloader who is a second generation reloader).

One thing I have learned mostly from my web searching is NEVER HP buy just one manuals numbers always cross check and then do a basic Google search tp see if there are any pitfalls tp watch for that isn't in the manual.

I hope my fellow new generation reloaders also have the same fondness for their fingers.

ljnowell said:

No, not at all. No more quality control goes into it because in most cases its the EXACT same data. Hodgdon online data vs. a printed manual? Speer and Alliant? Its the same. The manual may have MORE loads, different bullets, etc. Thats great to have. Many people like that. To think its better for some reason because its printed is false.

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I'm not suggesting that more or less work goes into working up the data, just that more levels of typographical review are likely. Numbers get transposed, etc. That's easy to fix on the internet. Perversely, though, that sometimes leads to a lower level of care for things published on the internet. Because printed mistakes are essentially eternal, quality printed material often gets many iterations of review.

Also, and I hestitate to even mention this, sometimes websites get hacked. A particularly malicious hacker - perhaps one with an animosity towards all shooters - could hack a website and up all the powder charges by 50% in an effort to get people hurt and ruin guns. Books are pretty hard to hack.

FWIW, I use online data as part of my source information. I like to find multiple sources for loads to reduce the chance of a typo or other mistake causing me a problem. I'm not against online data at all. At all. I'm against blind reliance on any source. My assessment is that, for me and for anyone who seeks my opinion, books are an essential part of the information mix.

I'm not suggesting that more or less work goes into working up the data, just that more levels of typographical review are likely. Numbers get transposed, etc. That's easy to fix on the internet. Perversely, though, that sometimes leads to a lower level of care for things published on the internet. Because printed mistakes are essentially eternal, quality printed material often gets many iterations of review.

Also, and I hestitate to even mention this, sometimes websites get hacked. A particularly malicious hacker - perhaps one with an animosity towards all shooters - could hack a website and up all the powder charges by 50% in an effort to get people hurt and ruin guns. Books are pretty hard to hack.

FWIW, I use online data as part of my source information. I like to find multiple sources for loads to reduce the chance of a typo or other mistake causing me a problem. I'm not against online data at all. At all. I'm against blind reliance on any source. My assessment is that, for me and for anyone who seeks my opinion, books are an essential part of the information mix.

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Its all a personal preference, I normally seek at least three sources of data bbefore I try a new load combo. Some powders though, like the Accurate Arms powders, I only use thier data, no one elses.

To me its really stretching reality to think hackers are changing load data on a manufacturers website. I'm not trying to tell people they wasted money on manuals. Some people prefer going to paper. I'm simply saying that everything thats available on paper is available online now too. Including scans of paper manuals, if you look hard enough. I have Alliant manuals back to 96, hodgdon back to 01, etc in pdf that were downloaded for free from the net.

ljnowell said:

To me its really stretching reality to think hackers are changing load data on a manufacturers website. I'm not trying to tell people they wasted money on manuals. Some people prefer going to paper. I'm simply saying that everything thats available on paper is available online now too. Including scans of paper manuals, if you look hard enough. I have Alliant manuals back to 96, hodgdon back to 01, etc in pdf that were downloaded for free from the net.

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I'm certainly not saying that hackers ARE doing that. It is a possibility, though. As for the complete scans of printed materials, there are some copyright law risks with that approach.

Anyway, we're not that far apart. Glad you've been able to make the interwebs work so well. I still prefer the comfort I get from having paper AND electronic sources.

My 25 cents (adjusted for inflation)

I am a beginning reloader. I'm 48 years old and I mainly got into it because I like to make things myself. So having just purchased a handgun and a rifle in a short span (pre panic) it seemed the natural thing to do, and my dad was a reloader also. I want to pass this fine craft on to my children.

Although the savings per round is a nice plus, I'm not kidding myself and thinking I'm going to break even anytime soon. All that equipment and tools etc are expensive

As far as manuals they help a lot. I have two - Hornady and Nosler. I have yet to find a website that has such comprehensive data for particular bullets. I do frequent the powder websites but find them not as useful for my purposes as the paper manuals from the bullet manufacturer. If I decide to try a different bullet than Hornady or Nosler I will probably buy that manufacturers manual.

Another thing that manuals help with that hasn't been mentioned is simply having a paper reminder of the things you need to keep in mind. In other words, it helps this new guy to know what kind of info I need to consider. One of these things, OAL, bit me in the butt last week and I ended up using my bullet puller on 10 rounds. Now that I think of it, that's the one tool I'm an expert at by now lol.

To put you more experienced guys at ease, I am very meticulous, almost paranoid about each trait of each round I make. I'm in no rush. I would much rather be slow and keep my fingers. I've made a total of 20 rounds in 2 recipes since I started. I feel like that's a good amount considering how much I have learned in the process. Besides, I haven't been able to get to the range lately to test. My time is coming this Saturday.

Well that's enough for me, I'm glad to be a part of this community and look forward to learning from yalls experience.

Although the savings per round is a nice plus, I'm not kidding myself and thinking I'm going to break even anytime soon. All that equipment and tools etc are expensive

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Depends on caliber here. I dont save much on 9mm maybe 50% or so. But on the large rifle calibers and magnum pistol you can save a ton. Rather than payin 30 or 40 for a box of .44 magnum you can load it for less than 10. If you reuse the brass the loading can make up for itself in the long run, until you start shooting a lot more

Depends on caliber here. I dont save much on 9mm maybe 50% or so. But on the large rifle calibers and magnum pistol you can save a ton. Rather than payin 30 or 40 for a box of .44 magnum you can load it for less than 10. If you reuse the brass the loading can make up for itself in the long run, until you start shooting a lot more

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The first caliber I reloaded for was 45acp. I started loading well before the real crazy stuff kicked in about 5 years ago, but I still realized quite a savings. When I started loading 38/357 and 45 colt a little later it was like "Wow!" Not just a a little, but like 75% savings in most cases!

All that equipment and tools etc are expensive

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That's why you need to go out and buy more firearms so you can save even more money (LOL).

But seriously, I remember when Powder was $17.95 a pound and primers about $18.00 per 1,000 and bullets were $12.00 per hundred. Boy have times changed.

Jim