Witness to an assault

Status
Not open for further replies.

AZ PAUL

Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2009
Messages
44
Location
Phoenix AZ
In the last year, I have been forced into switching jobs. This change has taken me to work for a local utility company and I run about 37 orders a day, usually in the southern to central parts of Phoenix. These areas seem to be a little "rougher" than when I occasionally work in the surrounding cities.

Today I happened to be working in a rougher area of central Phoenix. I had gone into a gated apartment complex and parked my truck. While walking to the unit, I heard a male yelling. I walked over to the exit gate and saw a male following a female yelling to "get into the f***ing car...". The male then proceeded to grab the female and she pulled away. After she pulled away, the male began punching the female with a closed fist. He punched her about 3-5 times in the stomach and arms. She bent over with obviouse pain in her stomach area. The complex I was in had high fences and the the gate I was near could only be activated by a car. I immediatly called the Phoenix Police Department and gave them information as it occured. The male continued to yell and began pulling her towards a green, Discount Cab. Because I was about 50ish(??) yards away, I couldnt get a cab number or plate number. Once he got her pulled over to the cab, he opened the back door and began pushing her in. She tried vigerously to get out and he again began punching and then kicking her into the cab. At this point a store owner came out and stood about 5 feet in front of the cab watching. Once the male got the female into the cab, they sat in the parking space for about a minute and then the cab actually drove off.

Once the cab drove off, I ended the phone call with the call taker and completed my order at the apartment. Afterwards I drove over the store and spoke to the guy who stood about 5 feet from the cab. He stated that once they were both in the cab, he continued to punch her until the cab driver left.

As a civilian, what would your actions be in a similar situation, or if you werent trapped in a apartment complex? It was a horrible feeling not being able to assist the lady.
 
In general, you have to act in a way that's consistent with both ethical standards and the law.

Years ago, my buddy Byron and I were witness to an apparent attempted abduction. We were on the phone with 911 when it became obvious we were just witnessing drunk people screwing around.

In your case, it was more obvious, but you weren't in a position to do more than you did. You did what you could.

It's amazing that a cab driver would let that type of violence continue in his vehicle.

John
 
Many years ago, I was witness to a similar event, minus the level of physical violence. I was sitting in my pickup outside an assisted-living (elder-care) facility into which my then-wife had gone to see about working there. A young woman was walking down the street, past where I was parked, when a car pulled up and a male jumped out and began yelling at her and trying to force her in. Two things were clear: she did not want to get in, and she and the male were known to/by each other. This was obviously a domestic or romantic quarrel.

But, I was an off-duty LEO. Though not within the jurisdiction of my employer, said employer had a "mutual-aid" agreement with the town in which I was and another one, and I had been, upon hire, sworn as an officer in all three municipalities.

I exited my vehicle, identified myself by displaying on my belt both my badge and gun, and told the male "if she doesn't want to get in that car, she does not have to. Leave without her." He demanded I "mind my own business." At this point, an employee of the ALF came out the front door. I ordered her to go back inside, call 911, and tell them an off-duty officer needed help. She just stood there displaying a blank stare (I might have gotten a better response had I issued the order in Creole.)

At this point, the female half of the dispute, apparently to avoid any further trouble, decided to enter the vehicle. The couple then left, and I dropped the matter.

I'd say you did all that could have been done from your vantage point.
 
My Dad would always tell me to mind my own business and don't get involved, ever. I have never followed his advice in this regard and will not stand idle while someone is being so obviously violently attacked. In the past I have seen similar situations unfold and have always asked the person being assaulted if they need / want help. When they respond with help me, or stop him, I will do what ever it takes to get the assailant to let them go. I know that legal issues can result from getting involved, but I don't have it in me to just look the other way while someone appears to be getting abducted or is getting assaulted. 911 is always in order, but in the mean time that victim is in need of some form of assistance. And I'm not referring to just simply displaying a firearm either, that only applies when it becomes necessary and prudent. I would try to get between them and the assailant, or try to pull the assailant off them. And then if the assailant turns their attention toward me, I have at least stopped the attack and can begin dealing with the threat against me. And even though this has changed my involvement from witness to an involved party, so be it. I'll then begin doing what is necessary to defend myself until LE arrives and begins doing what they do. Just observing and calling LE, does nothing to help that person who is being assaulted and abducted.

GS
 
I know a guy that intervened in a domestic where a man was assaulting his girlfriend. A altercation ensued between the men. The boyfriend ended up hurt. He got a warrant for my friend.The assaulted girlfriend would not testify on my friends behalf. The ordeal set him back a good sum of money in lawyers fees and medical bills.
 
To add another perspective on domestic cases: I know of an MP who was stabbed by a wife when arresting a resisting husband for battery of same wife.

These situations can be volatile, and unpredictable. If you don't have an extra pair of eyes and hands available, it's advisable to be a good witness and phone it in to the police. (Said MP had a partner, but they were both occupied with the resisting husband. So, even then there's a risk.)

That said, I know this wasn't necessarily a domestic dispute, either. Just thought I'd toss that in since they were mentioned. Intervention is always a gamble.
 
Intervene? If you feel it is necessary.

Intervene with a gun? In my state, the situation you described doesn't justify the use of deadly force, which is pretty much limited to preventing murder, arson, or rape.

Call 911 and make a report; stay on the line and give them a running commentary if you like. But stepping into someone else's dispute is a job for the police unless you see clear and provable-after-the-fact evidence someone may get killed.
 
AZ... you did the right thing and, if you choose you can re-contact the Department you called at the time and find out what, if anything, resulted from your call. As noted above it's extremely dangerous (both before, during, and afterwards) to intervene in that kind of situation. It might have been a simple boyfriend/girlfriend or husband/wife problem -or you may have witnessed something else entirely.

The usual advice given new officers about acting while off duty (or our of their jurisdiction) was always "Call it in" and allow on duty personnel to handle it. That was very good advice but there were times when I just couldn't follow it. That sort of stuff is a judgment call and more than one cop ended up regretting taking any action at all....

By the way, in popular entertainment pimps and hookers are rarely shown the way things usually go. In real life pimps keep their women "in line" by force, violence, even murder when it suits them.... I've been off the street in retirment now since the mid nineties and don't miss that world one bit....
 
Call 911 and tell them it looks like a kidnapping with a guy beating a girl and trying to get her into a car. Provide a description of the car. That's your first move
 
My uncle, a retired LEO, says the domestic abuse call was always the worst kind. Says at some point during or right after the fight between the couple, the female usually turns on the LEO, wont help, wont press charges, and its the same thing the next day. He was also stabbed in the chest in one of these scenarios. The only time he was ever injured in 40 yrs on the force. I'd stay out of it unless you're sure the female isnt involved with the perp somehow
 
Call the police always, try to talk it down if you think you can. Step in and stop it with force if it calls for it. If you cant call 911 no phone no signal or etc, I recommend watching getting a grasp on the situation then trying to talk it down. If that doesn't work stop it with force. Tho you always risk something bad happening when you get involved.
 
It's very hard to see that and not be able to put a stop to it. Sometimes it's all an act to draw in a mark. Video was a good suggestion. A decent still or video camera with zoom might capture a license plate you can't otherwise see. Sounds to me like you did the right thing.
 
One thing to always remember is things can get real hairy real quick. Just after I got out of the Marines I was back in my home town at a bar. A guy and a girl got into a spat and he slapped her hard. I stood up and walked over and got between them an told him to knock it off. I was 6'4 and just out of the Corps so I was in great shape. He lipped off and pushed me. I did not take him out but told him to settle down. He got up and lunged at me when all of a sudden the girl he slapped jumped me from behind and hit me with a bottle. It was a glancing blow and a few stiches and I was good to go but I never expected that. anyway a few of the guys buddies grabbed him and a few of her friends grabbed her and it was over but very strange things happen when you intervene. I am not saying I would not ever intervene but its a last resort.
 
One other small thought.... in the 22 years I worked as a cop the only time I was ever injured (mostly minor stuff) was by females. While you're trying to operate with restraint some of the fine ladies you're likely to meet will come at you at full force with whatever is available and without a bit of warning. It's enough to get a guy to forget to be a gentleman.....
 
Personally I would not have let the guy get that girl into the cab but that's me,its a tricky situation though,especially being in PHX. I used to live in PHX and found that its real easy to get mixed up with the cartel or MS-13,they have a tendency to be the one's beating women in public like that in PHX. I remember a similar situation out there where a good Samaritan saw a similar thing happening and simply shot the guy doing the beating dead on the spot,perfectly legal shooting under AZ law. I think its good for people that are able to intervene in those type of situations but at the same time I can understand why people don't,sometimes you become the target afterwards.
 
As a civilian, what would your actions be in a similar situation,

Both of my brothers are LEOs and I've had this discussion with each of them.

Their advice: don't get involved. Take notice of details like the time, place, description of participants, license plates, words exchanged.

Be a good witness for the police. They rarely get any.

The sad truth is that in many cases, people who act like that in public are rarely worth your involvement.
 
As a civilian, what would your actions be in a similar situation, or if you werent trapped in a apartment complex? It was a horrible feeling not being able to assist the lady.

My actions would be the same as yours was. Call 911 and that's it. Domestic violence cases are crazy. In my line of work, I've seen it all. The VAST majority of the time, the female victim refuses to pursue charges, and allows the perpetrator right back in their life. And like was mentioned above, any efforts from you will not be received with thanks and gratitude. You will in all likelyhood get the bad end of the deal. I hope that doesn't sound sexist, but I've just seen it too many times.
Once I was out running and a truck was parked off the road. There was a man and woman inside and the windows were rolled down. They were screaming and cursing at each other, and you could hear the smack from the road of him hitting her and her yell "Ow" along with more profanities. I kept running. And if it happens again tomorrow, I'll keep running again.

Now if you think someone is being abducted by someone in a kidnapping scenario, that's different.

I recommend watching getting a grasp on the situation then trying to talk it down. If that doesn't work stop it with force.

You go ahead and do that. I'll pass.
 
Last edited:
Kep in mind also if you do witness deadly force and then decide to intervene you often assume the 'legal status' of the victim for better or worse).

If the victim would be entitled to use deadly force you come out on the right side (maybe).

If the 'victim' did NOT have the right to use deadly force you definitely come out on the WRONG side of things.
Be a good witness and dial 911.

I am not going to risk my freedom & fortune for anyone but myself, my wife, & children.
 
I am not going to risk my freedom & fortune for anyone but myself, my wife, & children.

Amen brother.
My #1 priority is getting home to my wife and rugrat so I know I'm available to protect them. It's a shame that's the way it is these days, but it is.
 
I just simply won't standby and watch a woman get beat up and kid napped. Yes, I realize i'm putting myself at risk.

For those who say, "I'll only protect me and my family", I'm guessing you would hope bystanders have a different view if it's ever your loved one in the victim role.
 
For those who say, "I'll only protect me and my family", I'm guessing you would hope bystanders have a different view if it's ever your loved one in the victim role.

Well I'm never going to beat my wife, so that's not something I have to be concerned with.

Like I said before, if it looks like a woman is being kidnapped and taken against her will, and she is crying for help, I'll do whatever I can. But if its a relationship issue, no freakin way. And thats what this situation was. Kidnappers don't use taxi cabs. I'm not sticking my neck out for someone who chooses to stay in an abusive relationship, and that's what 95% of it is.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top