Level a city and the muslim extremists take the hint, or, the case for nuking them

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As usual, we've missed the point. The reason we are trying to police the Middle East is to ensure a steady, reliable, cheap source of oil. I'm not much for "coulda-shoulda-woulda" but I recall former President Carter calling for America to be energy self sufficient by the year 2000. If we had listened in 1978, we wouldn't be losing American lives in Iraq today. Just because we missed the boat 25 years ago does not mean we have to repeat the same mistakes. If we continue with the same energy policies, our children will still be dying in the Middle East 25 years from now.

Uh, we have. Autos in the late 70's were very inefficient (~10 mpg). Even today's SUVs are getting ~20 mpg, mid-sized cars ~25 mpg, trucks ~15 mpg. Water heaters and furnaces have greatly improved in efficiency. Industry is also seeking more efficient alternatives and upgrades. Do not drink the kool-aid.

The fact that gasoline today is the same price as it was over 20 years ago (constant dollars) should show that conservation has worked.

The problem with ME reliance for oil is that we do not have the political will to mine our own resources.

Conversely, we live in larger houses, have more appliances, and generally lead richer lives. If you want to live in an efficiency apartment above your workplace with no heat or air and use candles, knock yourself out. In the Balance

:rolleyes:
 
Energy self-sufficiency is an appealing idea but so is food self-sufficiency and manufacturing self-sufficiency. Maybe international trade and cooperation, while we slowly transition toward different technology, makes more sense? Last time I checked we were buying the oil, not stealing it. And if we weren't buying it, where would the Arab world be right now? Back in the seventh century? Well, maybe their hatred would be focused on the Chinese or the Indians instead, since they are going to be the coming great users of oil, it appears? Our "piggish" use of energy supplies the rest of the world with the stuff they want and need.
 
/Last time I checked we were buying the oil, not stealing it./ So the Americans who are dying in Iraq are our purchasing agents?:scrutiny:
 
Ky Larry

So the Americans who are dying in Iraq are our purchasing agents?
Specious argument. Got anything else?

The Americans dying in Iraq are the same Americans who have always died in foreign lands for the same reasons -- freedom.

Oil was flowing from Iraq under the "food for oil" program and the bootleg oil flowing through Turkey, Syria, etc.

Americans are there today to ensure that men don't have to be tied to a chair and forced to watch their wife and daughters gang raped.

Americans are there today to ensure that children aren't thrown in acid baths in front of their parents.

Americans are there today to ensure that the mass graves don't continue to fill.

Americans are there today to ensure that Saddam's sons no longer pick women off the street for their carnal pleasures and sadism.

Americans are there today to ensure that the food for oil money doesn't end up in the pockets of corrupt foreign politicians.

Americans are there today to ensure that the food actually gets to the people. Scott Helvenston was just such an American. http://www.latimes.com/news/nationw...l3apr03,0,1757182.story?coll=la-iraq-complete He didn't sit at a keyboard and complain about the problem. He went into the belly of the beast and died delivering that food.

Drop your agenda long enough to see what he saw.
 
It's not always about freedom

The Americans dying in Iraq are the same Americans who have always died in foreign lands for the same reasons -- freedom.

This is a little overstated. Plenty of Americans have died overseas for the convenience of various political factions [that IS how political factions become the most powerful, by acquiring assets through political means], or for no reason at all. American soldiers fought to:

Round up 2.5 million Russian nationals at the end of WWII and force them into the Gulag;

Round up South Vietnamese peasants and herd them onto collective farms (aka strategic hamlets);

Put Aristide back in as Haiti's "President-For Life" (well, these things don't always work as planned).


If you have specific arguments as to why it is worthwhile for America to spend 200 billion dollars and thousands of casualties to change the names of the oligarchs of Iraq, then by all means make them. But no one is going to take you seriously if you insist that every American military mission in history was altruistically aimed at bringing freedom to the poor benighted heathen.
 
I find the word "Jap" offensive.

I dont think the goverment has any business in telling us what we can say or what we cant.

On the other hand, ya use offensive terms to refer to people you reap the consequences, either a butt kicking, a boycott, or whatever.

Similarly, if ya dont object to it or think its wrong, thats as bad as using it, no matter what your background, ignorant epthithets are at the minimum a sighn of ignorance and at the worst a sign of rascism.

As my cutie, sweetie gun purchase superivising wife is Japanese, I take the word Jap as even more offensive.

I cant stop it, but I sure as hell aint gonna do buisness with anyone I know who uses it or thinks it OK.

But thats freedom isnt! Your free not to come to my house because my wife is a "Jap", Im free not to do business with you because of the way you thinK....

WildtakingnotesAlaska
 
telomerase

But no one is going to take you seriously if you insist that every American military mission in history was altruistically aimed at bringing freedom to the poor benighted heathen.
The freedom isn't always theirs. It is, however, always ours.

Freedom isn't always bestowed. Sometimes it is merely retained by those who already have it.

I don't see anyone beating a hot retreat out of the United States to seek freedom in other lands. I do, however, see them flocking to America with a singular common goal -- freedom.

They risk their lives to stow away in the wheel wells of intercontinental flights. SOURCE

They come on automobiles converted into boats SOURCE

63586.jpg


buick-lg.jpg

and on innertubes.

68464213154.jpg


I don't see anyone here doing anything so creative to get the Hell out of here.
 
Americans are there today to ensure that men don't have to be tied to a chair and forced to watch their wife and daughters gang raped. (etc.)
Oh, horse hockey.

There's a future for you writing greeting cards.

Are you saying it's America's job to right all of the wrongs in the world? Then why aren't we in the Sudan and a thousand other places I could name? And weren't we about 50 years late in Iraq?

And if that's why Americans are there today, why did the admin bother to make up all of those lies about WMDs?
 
To continue the great theme...

Horse hockey is as horse hockey does.

Oh, horse hockey.

There's a future for you writing greeting cards.

Are you saying it's America's job to right all of the wrongs in the world? Then why aren't we in the Sudan and a thousand other places I could name? And weren't we about 50 years late in Iraq?

And if that's why Americans are there today, why did the admin bother to make up all of those lies about WMDs?[


Right all of the wrongs? No, just when its in our national interest to do so. In this case the war on terror.

Yep. I agree. We should get the UN admin together and yell at them for jumping to the wrong conclusion about Iraq.

Text of U.N. resolution on Iraq
Link
 
I don't see anyone beating a hot retreat out of the United States to seek freedom in other lands. I do, however, see them flocking to America with a singular common goal -- freedom.

Several people that I know personally have left the US to escape its taxation (and still more have sent their money on before them). Of course the poor people you picture are trying to get into the US... to escape the dictatorships that the US funds and supports. Castro received US foreign aid soon after the Bay of Pigs... plus billions in "Soviet" aid that was paid for by US "loans". (And a lot of the people who cross on inner tubes are rounded up and sent back by our "pro-freedom" troops).

Anyway, no one here denies that a lot of people come to the US to try to live free (and it's a good thing, because if we had to depend on the people that go through our own public schools we'd have no biotech and only half our computer industry). Your claim was that ALL use of US troops overseas was to promote freedom, and I still say that you are undercutting your own credibility. Most Americans are pro-freedom (at least for their own narrow interests), but not most American politicians. Don't be a conspiracy theorist; there is no vast government conspiracy to help YOU.
 
Try this: mentally retitle this thread "level New York, and maybe the Trepassing Infidels will take the hint and leave the Holy Lands".

When you find yourself thinking that killing millions of innocent women and children is a good solution to a problem, you have probably made a math error somewhere.
 
The history of Palestine is very old and begins thousands of years ago. We can see rich prehistoric findings, fossils of people and animals that belong to the Old and Middle Stone Age (700.000 BC – 15.000 BC).
In the Old Testament the first inhabitants are called Canaanites. Before Abraham’s time the territory was divided in cities-kingdoms who collapsed from the immigrants that came in from east and north. After them came other groups of immigrants of Indo-Europeans and Indo-Iraqis among them Abraham and his tribe. The inhabitants of Palestine named them Imbri which means foreigners. Later on they were named Israelites from the name Israel which means «the one God reinforces» a name given to Abraham by an angel (Genesis 32:23-30). Later on Jacob and his descendants leave Canaan and go to Egypt. From 1.550 BC until 1.250 BC is the Canaanitian era. Palestine falls to Egypt and becomes her province. These are the years of the Jewish slavery in Egypt, the Exodus, the formation of the tribes of Israel and the creation of the Jewish religion in the Sinai desert (10 commandments). Under God’s instructions Moses and Joshua lead His people to the Promised Land (1.500-1.400 BC). Palestine is divided to the 12 tribes of Israel who occupy the inland. The Philistines another tribe settles in the south and they establish Gaza, Asquelon, Ashdod, Gad and Eqron. The rest of the coast line is populated by other tribes. In time the Jews strengthen under the leadership of local governors (the Judges of the Old Testament) and later on under the united kingdom of the first king of Israel Saul (1.200 - 1.025 BC). When David becomes Israel’s king (1.000 BC), he unites socially and religiously the 12 tribes of Israel and makes Jerusalem the capital of his kingdom. He wins the Philistines who spread and incorporate with the natives.
David’s son Solomon becomes Israel’s king and builds the famous temple of Jerusalem (967-959 BC). After Solomon’s death the kingdom is divided in two: the kingdom of Israel (10 tribes) and the kingdom of Judah (2 tribes). The next years are connected with the kings and prophets of the Bible.
In 722 BC the northern kingdom of Israel falls to Assyria and in 586 BC the kingdom of Judah on the south falls to Babylon and Jews are exiled to Babylon. Jerusalem and the temple are destroyed. New inhabitants come to live in Palestine, among them the Samaritans. The exile lasts 40 years and during this time the ark of God with the Ten Commandments is ravaged.
In 539 BC the Persians conquer Palestine and Babylon but they have a more liberal mind. They allow Jews to return and rebuild Jerusalem and the other towns. Cyrus orders to allow Jews to rebuilt the temple and gives back what is left of the golden vessels. This second temple is built on the ruins of the 1st one and is named Zarobabel because it was build under his supervision and with help from prophets Zechariah and Haggai. At the same time the people of Palestine develop relations with the Greeks and the coasts from Gaza to Accra are Hellenised.
In 332 BC Alexander the Great conquers Palestine and brings a new era to the people of the Judah and the east. First of all he lets them, according to his principles- live with their own morals and traditions. The communion with the Greeks radically changes their cultural behaviour. The Hellenistic language and intellect dominate. But this doesn’t last for long. After the death of Alexander Palestine is again the place where bloody events take place.
In 167 BC begins the Maccabean revolt that had political and religious aspects. The result was the creation of the semiautonomous kingdom of the Maccabeans or Hasmoneans who spread all over Palestine except the big Greek cities.
In 63 BC Palestine falls to Rome. The Roman general Pompey abolishes the kingdom of the Maccabeans.
With the help of the Roman army Herod captures Jerusalem in 42 BC and gains control of Judea under the Roman supervision. His reign is troublous and bloody. He demolishes the Temple and builds a bigger one. During this time Jesus of Nazareth is born in Bethlehem. Herod who was afraid that Jesus will take his throne orders the slaughter of 14.000 children. After his death the Romans assume direct rule in Judea with roman governors. One of them was Pilate (27 - 37 AD).
In 66 AD the Jews revolt against Rome but the Roman general Titus after a long siege seizes Jerusalem and destroys the Jewish Temple. It is the beginning of the dispersion of the Jewish people all over the world.
With the establishment of the east roman state with Constantipole for capital, Palestine becomes a Byzantine province. Christianism is established and is the dominating religion. The Byzantine emperors with most important Constantine the Great and his mother St. Helena appoint the Holy Land. They build churches and monasteries in Jerusalem and all over Palestine. The Christian pilgrims swarm. Monasticism develops, evolves and spreads in the Holy Land.
In 614 Ad the Persians of king Chosroes II conquer Palestine. They slaughter, destroy and ravage. They destroy the Church of the Holy Sepulchre seize The Cross and take it to Persia and take captive the patriarch Zechariah.
In 622 AD emperor Heraclius campaigns against them and crushes them. He frees Palestine and comes in Jerusalem victoriously with The Cross. He erects The Cross on Golgotha in September 14, 629. He frees patriarch Zechariah.
In 637 AD Palestine falls to the Arabs. Initially they didn’t harm the Christians and the rights of the Patriarchate. Later on they made many destructions to the pilgrimages. They prosecute the Christians and force a lot of them to recantation. The churches and the monasteries are desolated and pilgrims don’t visit. These persecutions and injuries of the Christians in The Holy Land give the Europeans a cause to organise the crusades for their liberation.
In 1099 Palestine falls to the Crusaders. In 15-06-1099 they enter victoriously in the Holy City and establish the kingdom of Jerusalem. They immediately attend to restore and rebuild the monuments and pilgrimages. Pilgrims begin to come again in the Holy Land. The beam of light is sort. In 1187 the Mamluk Saladin crushes the crusaders. Few cities remain to the crusaders until 1291 when the last are driven away.
An era of decay and hustle begins. The barbarians domineer. In 1517 the Ottomans invade. The situation is no different. The Patriarchate is trying hard to save the pilgrimages and to keep the thin balance in its relations with the conquerors and the other doctrines who came in Jerusalem. Important role to this cause have the “Significant†(Guard of the Holy Sepulchre).
After the liberation of Greece, the Greeks take over the maintenance and re-building of churches in co-operation with the Church of Jerusalem.
In 1917 after the 1st World War the United Nations assign the administration of Palestine to Great Britain. Palestine is governed from a British resident who had to be Hebrew.
In 1948 the British administration is terminated and two states establish. The states of Israel and Jordan.
In 1967 and in the Six Day war between Israel and the Arabs the greater part of Palestine is occupied by the Israelis who regain control of the western wall of the Temple.
The war in 1973 enlarges the gap between Jews and Arabs. The controversies have brought the country into a dead end 2,000 years after the Jesus birth.
The pilgrims have survived through these adventures with main keystone the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.

Yep, Looks like they have a clear title of ownership to me.

Link
 
Wow, what an unbiased timeline!

n 637 AD Palestine falls to the Arabs. Initially they didn’t harm the Christians and the rights of the Patriarchate. Later on they made many destructions to the pilgrimages. They prosecute the Christians and force a lot of them to recantation. The churches and the monasteries are desolated and pilgrims don’t visit. These persecutions and injuries of the Christians in The Holy Land give the Europeans a cause to organise the crusades for their liberation.

*snort*

Look up the cause of the Crusades. "Persecution of Chhristians in the Holy Land" was not one of them. That section is so ignorant of Western Civ history that it reads like a revisionism attempt of a high school sophomore.

The First Crusades were initiated by a letter of the Byzantine Emperor to the Bishop of Rome, requesting assistance against the Turks who by now held territiory right on the doorstep of Byzantium. He didn't realize that he would kick off a religious mass-migration, one in which the "second sons" of European nobility saw a chance for glory and personal enrichment. The Bishop of Rome promptly granted absolution and immediate access into heaven for Crusaders if they perished fighting the heathens, or on the way to the Holy Land. The Roman Church put its weight into the Crusades to make people forget about the Investiture Controversy that had rocked the Church not long before, and also because the Roman Church saw an opportunity to bring the wayward and "barbaric" Eastern Orthodox Byzantines back into the fold.


In 1099 Palestine falls to the Crusaders. In 15-06-1099 they enter victoriously in the Holy City and establish the kingdom of Jerusalem.

After killing most of the folks inside Jerusalem...Christian, Jew, and Muslim alike. The Christians in the Holy Land had at that point peacefully co-existed with their Muslim and Jew neighbors, and didn't need "rescuing". The Crusaders were a little non-plussed by this and promptly massacred the Jews and Christians of Jerusalem along with the Muslims.

They immediately attend to restore and rebuild the monuments and pilgrimages. Pilgrims begin to come again in the Holy Land. The beam of light is sort. In 1187 the Mamluk Saladin crushes the crusaders. Few cities remain to the crusaders until 1291 when the last are driven away.

The Crusades were anything but a "beam of light", they were one of the most savage chapters of history, chock-full of religious fanaticism, lust for riches, and outright madness.
 
Of course the Crusades didn't exactly spring out of nowhere now, did they? I seem to remember some Moslem predations over the previous three centuries. I guess it's okay to be imperialistic when you have have the Koran on your side?

That said, that was then and this is now. If the Moslems are still stewing over the Crusades that might be part of their problem. Break on through to the other side, brothers.
 
"The Crusades were anything but a "beam of light", they were one of the most savage chapters of history, chock-full of religious fanaticism, lust for riches, and outright madness."

Radical Islam wouldn't be guilty of this, I suppose. And that's today, not a thousand years ago.
 
I am closing this thread with a request that we err on the side of civility in the use of ethnicalally based terms. Humor, smile and a wink, are hard to convey in text, so misunderstandings and hurt feelings are likely.

Thank you.
 
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