Washington Times Flaming the M4

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barnbwt

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http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/feb/19/troop-left-to-fend-for-themselves-after-army-was-w/

Aside from the muck-raking angle of the article, the part that stood out was the bit about 20% of troops having stoppages in combat, 4% where it caused a serious impact. Those aren't insignificant numbers no matter how you spin them. Lot of poor gun-writing to be sure, and 180° opposed language compared to civilian M4gery descriptions ("5.56 too weak" "lacks killing power: D). There seems to be some good arguments beneath the surface, though

TCB
 
This again!?..

Everyone keeps kicking a dead horse! I thought the Army was wise to abandon the M4 replacement program - finally! This whole thing probably goes all the way back to 1958 and the SCHV studies. Whether it's a personal dislike for the AR15 platform or financial and/or political interest, some people have been attacking this rifle for over 50+ years. Enough already! The M4 and its civilian offshoots are a good weapon system. If it was so bad, why does the AR15 system rank right up there with the AK47 worldwide? Put the money and effort where it belongs - on soldier training and support. The U.S. Army has some of the worlds best weapon systems and technology. :):mad:
 
They are eventually going to have to replace it, but I don't see anything out there now as a huge step above what they already have...not compared to the main weapon changes they have done in the past.

1861 Springfield to 1873 Springfield brought the huge advancement of cartridges
1873 to Krag brought smokeless powder and smaller faster bullet
Krag to 1903 not as big of an advancement, but a more powerful cartridge, stronger gun and easier to load.
1903 to M1 Garand...semi auto
M1 to M14, smaller lighter cartridge with equal power and full auto capability
M14 to M16...polymers and aluminum to make it much lighter, and much lighter ammo

I don't see the SCAR or the XM8 as anywhere close to the step up as the previous changes.
 
well Sen. Tom Coburn apparently knows of some. According to him, "A number of manufacturers have researched, tested and fielded weapons which, by all accounts, appear to provide significantly improved reliability." I guess both he and the writer of that story will let you guess which ones those are...
 
So there's some conflicting reports from the media about the most popular gun in America. I think this could be a blessing in disguise. According to them it "lacks killing power" for the soldier, but according to other sources it's a weapon of mass destruction when owned by civilians. I think this could help to pull people away from their trust of media.
 
People have complained about the M16/M4 family since its introduction. Its always the same argument, it jams. Any weapon designed with extremely tight tolerances is going to have trouble. The article brought up the AK74 but all that is is a spray and hope you hit something firearm. The article brings up bunkers and vehicles but that demands a higher caliber firearm and if you go that way what do you do away with to carry the same amount of ammo one does when carrying the M4. The M16\M4 family is not a bunker busting firearm and is limited in its role against vehicles and you won't be hitting targets at 1,000 meters either. The 5.56 is not a 50BMg or 30 caliber round. Each has its role and there is no such thing as the perfect rifle that does every thing.
 
The M4 is a good weapon system. At least the article didn't bring up the BS "dust test". The two biggest problems with the M16/M4 is A) the belief that it shouldn't be oiled much in a dusty environment and B) over used, worn out aluminum mags.

The failures at the Battle of Wanat happened because the US heavy weapons were destroyed at the beginning of the battle. After that several of the guys were using M4s as a makeshift SAW which it isn't designed for.

Colts own testing has shown the M4 barrel fails at around 800 rounds if firing full auto mag dumps as fast as possible. The heavy barrel M4A1 goes a bit longer but eventually the gas tube melts.
 
Put the money and effort where it belongs - on soldier training and support.
Agreed. All weapon systems will fail under harsh enough conditions, and the current conditions some of our troops are in is pretty brutal. Proper training and support will significantly minimize the effects of those failures if and when they eventually surface.
 
Pretty telling to me that elite units around the world choose the Stoner AR platform even if their regular forces use something else.
 
well, it's better to know what it takes to ruin a good weapon, because at least you know how long it works.

Every gun people try to put over the M4 lacks the luxury of longevity. It's easy to have a perfect gun when you never go to war with it.

I'm sure that a slight redesigning of the BCG channel and chamber could make the weapon better, but there seems to be a consensus that the weapon of today have hit diminishing returns since the '90s.
 
I was cruzing drudge and read the article. How can a gun guy resist. The cartridge angle is a non starter. If the target is too far away to make effective hits the the same must be true from the opposition as well.

If the gun breaks after 800 rounds of full auto you're probably out of ammo anyway.

Also, the SCAR was mentioned and was found to be lacking. The Marine M16A4 was shown to be superior. At least to the M4. WTH.... Same platform. Different use.

Run something fast enough and long enough and it will break.
 
And some people, often with little or no experience, have been blindly defending that "miracle rifle" for those same 50+ years. The Army was forced to adopt the M16 in the first place because of political influence, lies about its capability, and Colt's "campaign contributions" to several key members of Congress.

The problem was that we had nothing else that was remotely capable of controlled full auto fire and it would not have gone over too well with the right wing to do the sensible thing and adopt the AK-47.

Jim
 
There are two distinct issues here.

The first is the 5.56x45 cartridge. Which many people consider marginal, particularly at the longer ranges encountered in Afghanistan.

The second is the direct impingement operating system of the M-16 design.

My personal assessment? The 5.56 round is probably inadequate. The problem is that DOD just doesn't have that much money...and a program to ditch the 5.56 for something in the 6-7mm range would be expensive. Remember that the M-1 Garand was originally chambered in .276 Pedersen, but the Army could not afford to switch from .30-06. But if we could manage it, replacement would be an excellent idea.

Direct impingement is another question. DI has the advantage of being lighter and simpler, piston operation is cleaner. I suspect that if we were starting over, piston would win the day.
 
The article is full of bad information which was debunked years ago. This is the Washington Times we're talking about- a paper that is clearly anti liberty
 
What a bunch of bs.

Take the number of rounds of .556 we fired there from 2001 to 2011.
Divide that by the number of deployed troops there from 2001 to 2011.
Then consider many of those troops fire 0 rounds of .556.

Pick 10 examples of any rifle and give each to one person. Shoot 5000 rounds each under those conditions. If 2 people have 1 malfunction out of those 5000 rounds you've met those statistics. 20% of those guns malfunctioned. That means that you could literally fire 49,998 rounds with 2 malfunctions which may or may not be ammo or magazine issues and you've now met that criteria. What a bunch of crap.
 
And some people, often with little or no experience, have been blindly defending that "miracle rifle" for those same 50+ years. The Army was forced to adopt the M16 in the first place because of political influence, lies about its capability, and Colt's "campaign contributions" to several key members of Congress.

The problem was that we had nothing else that was remotely capable of controlled full auto fire and it would not have gone over too well with the right wing to do the sensible thing and adopt the AK-47.

I haven't seen anyone "blindly" defending anything. Where'd you get that?
 
The M4 is not a POS like some people make it out to be. You can keep most M4s running most of the time. Truly unreliable M4s are like truly inaccurate AKs--while they get a disproportionate amount of "press" when they pop up, they are really both the exception.

I can see why the AR has its fans too. It is lightweight, modular, ergonomic, low recoil, and bar none is the most accurate service rifle ever adopted by any country. In our short history on this planet, we Americans have established a reputation for accurate arms. Russians like simple and utilitarian. Germans like sophisticated and over engineered. Americans, we like our rifles to be accurate. Which is why every service arm we've adopted since 1903 has enjoyed a successful career as a target/competition rifle as well. Americans are willing to make sacrifices for accuracy. How much is the question...

My admittedly brief experience with the M16/AR made a lasting impression on me as well. I remember NCOs walking up and down the firing line with a squirt bottle full of CLP. I remember marveling at how the annoying SPOING sound of the buffer assembly next to my head got even more annoying with a little grit in the rifle. I remember hours spent cross-legged and piles of broken, grungy q-tips, cursing and questioning the logic of adopting a target rifle as service rifle. Because the AR is an excellent semi-auto sniper/target rifle. But it is by design flawed when dealing with the sustained, high volume, rapid fire rates and round counts demanded by prolonged combat. This is only partially mitigated by maintaining rigorous cleaning and maintenance regimes, and by the use of high-tech modern uber-lubricants and cleaner propellants. The bottom line is that this rifle does crap where it eats. It isn't as reliable as any other service rifle in use by even the most backwards, third-world army or militia group. It does require more cleaning and maintenance than anything else we've ever allowed outside the wire. And you can't blame people if they find this unacceptable, because in the end, you don't need sub-MOA accuracy with an average engagement distance of 60 meters, as we had in Iraq. You do need your rifle to function. These "vicious rumors" that have been attached to Stoner's masterpiece concerning reliability, and concerning the lack of fight stopping ability of the 5.56 cartridge are more than wive's tails and myths. Maybe the reason they've persisted despite billions of dollars worth of research and upgrades and enhancements, despite the training, and despite Call of Duty, over the course of nearly half a century of service, is because they are based in truth.

So for starters, what does the SCAR do that the M4 can't? Folding stock. Completely ambi. Has a charging handle located in a place that makes sense, rather than being equally inconvenient for everyone. More important are the things the SCAR doesn't do that the M4 does. The SCAR doesn't require more maintenance than its operator or nearly any other piece of equipment of similar complexity on the battlefield. Because it doesn't crap where it eats. That should be enough.
 
The points about the AR15 firing so may more rounds than other platforms does seem to be a possible root factor for higher failure. Correlation does not always equal causation, as we all know. But the fact is, that run time (i.e. the gun 'working' at any given time the soldier would have a need for it) is the important factor, and if our tactics or equipment are detrimental to that end, we end up with guys having broken guns when the enemy doesn't. Whether that's the arrow, the indian, or the strategy, who knows? The article is only addressing one of those possible causes (admittedly the easiest one to blame). They suggest that further development or even replacement of the M4 with something more capable of sustained fire (the Green Mountain proposal was what they kept mentioning) was a possible remedy. In the article's defense, the AR is, at the end of the day, built extremely light for its caliber, and operates closer to its margin than more inefficient designs; that means they ultimately wear and break faster. If our boys really are shooting the guns to pieces with their volume of fire, I can't see any flaw in the notion that their guns need to be able to hold up longer :confused:

The system had serious deficiencies, which have been mostly addressed (they wouldn't have been were they not serious deficiencies) at great expense over many years, but what we have now is pretty good. It's just a bit of a Swiss watch by comparison to less improved designs, thus its reduced margin of operation in adverse conditions (environmental, human, and operational). Having seen people try to build functioning guns from anything but uber-precise robo-machined jewels of technology, it's a pretty tough operating system to dial in reliably. But with the quality that goes into the guns we field (no snark QC comments; the guns are among the best quality fielded anywhere, bad QC included) I was surprised to hear malfunctions were as common (20%) or as problematic (4%) as they are. If those numbers used to be higher, I shouldn't feel that bad, but where they are, I worry about the 1:20 guy's gun jamming at the worst possible time because it may not be the best tool he could have been using.

The 'same arguments made for 60 years' keep getting made because they have merit. The AR15 does have a rather unique operation* that does require some unique treatment that other platforms can get away without needing. All I know is the 'next gen' of guns that aren't enough of a step up to justify replacing the AR are nearly all piston driven. As were nearly all non-American locked breech gas-guns since WWII. I think that after another few rounds of improved optics, modularity, polymers, and reduced-maintenance coatings, replacement of the AR is assured; not oiling your gun or swabbing the barrel is a pretty big step in gun tech (granted, that's what they said about the AR in the 60's ;) )

"This is the Washington Times we're talking about- a paper that is clearly anti liberty"
Uh, they've got a dedicated writer to gun issues from a libertarian perspective. Not everyone who disagrees with you (or your choice of gun) is a pinko commun-nazi :rolleyes:

For a paper without an explicit focus on "gun issues," they tend to do better than many others (or are at least trying). That said, a number of sentences in this particular article sound like they came from someone used to writing about firearms in the 'usual' way we see them; "unleashing rapid bullet fire' and such awkward phrases. Kinda funny to see that style of prose juxtaposed against an article that is trying to logically critique, rather than emotionally denounce, a fairly technical subject. At the end of the day, this article is very even-handed compared to AR-bashing threads with the same content here ;)

TCB

*Look at the 20 or so basic auto-loading action types used by the world's militaries over the last 100 years, and the AR15 is indisputably one of the oddest (AG42 was weirder, but just barely), and was never arrived at independently by others like most designs, but proliferated because of massive licensing agreements by way of NATO and the size/generosity of our nation and military forces. The AK was also given away, but similar designs were also arrived at independently, and the basic operating principle was flagrantly copied by numerous NATO states and others over the years. The only part of the Stoner system that has proliferated similarly was the brilliant barrel extension concept, and possibly the lower/upper configuration (the G3/CETME was probably the bigger driver for this arrangement, I suspect)
 
I'd like to proudly say I take care of my company's m4s. I fix em if they're broke and leave them if they're not. Parts in hand for small issues, but quarterly inspections and cleanliness are a huge part of the good operation. The magazines also play a monster role in the full auto jams. Back a few years ago you couldn't get the mags to keep up with the weapon from what I saw, even on burst.
 
You couldn't debunk all the stupid in that article with 10,000 monkeys and 10,000 laptops. That was a horribly ignorant excuse for journalism that both the author and Washington Times should be ashamed of.

Most every single claim in it has been debated to minutiae levels here in the rifle forum. And some of it is just stupidity - 5.56 is too weak so replace it with a G36? M4s got hot and stopped functioning at Wanat (without mentioning that they also overheated two belt-fed SAWs)? The only thing worse than the article was the comment section.
 
"Most every single claim in it has been debated to minutiae levels here in the rifle forum. And some of it is just stupidity - 5.56 is too weak so replace it with a G36? M4s got hot and stopped functioning at Wanat (without mentioning that they also overheated two belt-fed SAWs)? The only thing worse than the article was the comment section."
They debated the round and the gun separately in the article, for what that's worth. And you'll probably remember that none of those debates was settled, either, implying merit on both sides of the issue. While a whole 'nuther can of worms, the M249 is a large part of the problem we have with keeping magazines functional. The real lesson at Wanat was that heavy support was too lacking and those guys had to rely on their guns in the first place, to be sure. And of course the comments suck; why do you think I posted the article here for discussion :D

"The magazines also play a monster role in the full auto jams."
I've never understood why no one ever designs these guns to have a rate-reducer that's driven by the magazine. All you'd have to do is lock the bolt momentarily, the have the rising round release it, and you could have the wimpiest mag spring in the world pushing through molasses --and the rounds would still strip.

"I can see why the AR has its fans too. It is lightweight, modular, ergonomic, low recoil, and bar none is the most accurate service rifle ever adopted by any country. In our short history on this planet, we Americans have established a reputation for accurate arms. Russians like simple and utilitarian. Germans like sophisticated and over engineered. Americans, we like our rifles to be accurate. Which is why every service arm we've adopted since 1903 has enjoyed a successful career as a target/competition rifle as well. Americans are willing to make sacrifices for accuracy. How much is the question..."

I think Americans are probably known for volume of fire more than accuracy (not that that isn't actually a smarter strategy). Come to think of it, our volume of everything (tanks, bombs, ships, airplanes) has always been so far and away superior to what we opposed, that it scarcely mattered we had antiquated rifles or horrifically under-armored tanks to win battles with. We tend to have well made stuff, designed well, that may or may not be what we actually need at the time. The fact it isn't poorly made garbage makes it pretty darn accurate; the M1 Garand is operationally so similar to the AK/PSL it's hilarious to me, but the expensive forged/milled receiver contraption is so much nicer than the cast/stamped noodle on the AK and its rough-shod parts that we think it's the zenith of accurate design.

The Germans over-engineer stuff, but that is not the same as complication. They just distill everything into a neat, tight, efficient package that is difficult to duplicate well. But they really haven't had kludge designs since WWII, when they were trying anything and everything in order to prop up the arms companies (that's my theory, anyway)

The Swiss, however, those are the kludge guys who are into accuracy :D. Anything goes, so long as it makes the gun more expensive. A 14lb G3 that requires an 8ft man to operate and incredibly tight tolerances? Why not? Make your machinegun ammo accurate to less than 1MOA? Why not?

You're right about the Russians; all about utility. I think the majority of their success comes not from design or execution, but simply recognizing what is needed for a given problem. To supply and unite a vast armed empire, and support and influence regimes abroad, you don't need an accurate rifle, you don't even need a well-designed rifle (the AK is lacking in a number of places); you need a cheap rifle, first and foremost. Secondarily important, it needs to work more often than not in the hands of idiots. Meet those criteria, and your 3rd world proxies have all they need.

Meanwhile, we were perfecting the art of high-end die forging and automated machining to make yet another revision to the weirdo pressurized-bolt rifle action seen nowhere else on the planet, that we could scarcely afford to pay for, ourselves :D. American ingenuity made it work, but a lot of it has been required to get where we are, today.

TCB
 
Here's a link to a more believable article on the same subject.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/the-usas-m4-carbine-controversy-03289/

It's not just the WT flaming the M4, looks like a lot of people in the military don't like it either. The sad part is a better carbine is available in the HK 416 and the military won't adopt it. Actually, because the 416 is based on the AR-15, there is an upgrade (upper, buffer and drive spring) that will convert an M4 to a short stroke piston HK-416.

Consider the cost of a new F-22. Some say 137 million, others say 377 million. That would buy you 68,500 HK-416's or possibly upgrade 140,000 M4's for the cost of one F-22 using the conservative 137 million figure. Does anyone see anything wrong here.

The HK 416 is still the 5.56, just a better piston system from the folks that brought you the MP5. I believe the HK 416 is being field tested in some units right now. My guess is the military will be moving to the HK soon enough.
 
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I love my AR rifles and I think they are a great design but the fact is many countries have or are moving on to something else. Most of them have reported the same problems. The M4 typically comes in last place in all tests. The Russians are starting to phase out the AK74. Maybe it's time for the US to look for something better. Surely the M4 can be improved on.
 
The article brought up the AK74 but all that is is a spray and hope you hit something firearm

Thats funny, I hear PLENTY of reports of 74's shooting right around 2 in. @ 100 yards with military ball ammo, hardly spray and pray stats, IMO
 
barnbwt said:
They debated the round and the gun separately in the article, for what that's worth. And you'll probably remember that none of those debates was settled, either, implying merit on both sides of the issue.

People not being able to agree on the Internet implies merit on both sides of the issue? I'll disagree on that.

While a whole 'nuther can of worms, the M249 is a large part of the problem we have with keeping magazines functional. The real lesson at Wanat was that heavy support was too lacking and those guys had to rely on their guns in the first place, to be sure.

The right tool for the right job. If you are killing beltfed weapons by overheating, you shouldn't be surprised when individual rifles you use to replace them also overheat and fail. That isn't a design problem. That is just using the rifle in a role it was not designed for (and a role that none of the proposed contenders can fill either for that matter).

CoalTrain49 said:
Consider the cost of a new F-22. Some say 137 million, others say 377 million. That would buy you 68,500 HK-416's or possibly upgrade 140,000 M4's for the cost of one F-22 using the conservative 137 million figure. Does anyone see anything wrong here.

O yeah, I see a lot wrong here; but probably not innthe same way you do. The reason the Air Force spends that money on the F-22 is because it is a critical part of their air superiority strategy. Without the F22, they cannot achieve air superiority in certain areas. So that is a bad analogy; because even if we take all the allegations about the superiority of the HK416 as fact, the Army can still achieve all of its roles with the M4.

And given that the Army is currently being forced to drop both the OH-58 and UH-67 helicopter programs entirely due to budget considerations, I doubt they are all that interested in spending money to replace operational rifles (not to mention maintain two separate logistical systems of spare parts for two separate infantry rifles that look very similar but are not interchangeable).

And of course all of this cost would be for a marginal improvement in a weapon system that actually accounts for a proportionately small share of kills on the battlefield, despite its necessity.

The HK 416 is still the 5.56, just a better piston system from the folks that brought you the MP5.

So, they built a pistol caliber roller-delayed blowback firearm that was successful, ergo their short-stroke gas piston intermediate caliber rifle must also be good? Is that your argument?

I believe the HK 416 is being field tested in some units right now. My guess is the military will be moving to the HK soon enough.

The 416 is being used in some special operations units that use short-barrelled rifles, do over-the-beach ops, and do a LOT of shooting. The M27 (a 416 variant) has been adopted by the USMC to supplement the M249 in a revision to the strategy concerning the role of the Automatic Rifleman in a squad. Beyond that, the Army just evaluated the HK416A5 (and other rifles) in the Improved Carbine Competition. Their conclusion was that none of the rifles represented enough of an improvement over the M4 to justify the cost.
 
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