Westchester, NY Issues

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parsimonious_instead

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Greetings:

My beloved range in Ardsley, NY is under attack! After 70+ years incident-free and relatively good relations with nearby homes (occasional noise complaints, which made us make voluntary changes to some of the ways we operate), it's about to be ex-post-facto legislated out of existence. An alleged bullet fragment escapement into the yard of one of the nearby new and expensive homes has The town of Greenburgh, NY (a weird county-like agglomeration of townships) drafting regulations pertaining to outdoor ranges, including a buffer zone of a quarter mile. We are far less than a quarter mile from extant occupied structures and there are no grandfathering provisions. It's a vindictive law meant specifically to shut us down.

There are some private indoor ranges that are on the verge of opening up in Westchester, but they are far more expensive. A lot of the people that shoot at Ardsley can't afford the fee structure of these (admittedly state of the art) facilities.

One of the key features of our Range is that anyone bearing a real badge can shoot for free. No cost to the officer, or their department. Feds, County, State and local police all practice to qualify there, train departmentally, and sharpen their shooting so they'll prevail in an armed encounter. In addition, I think there is value in a place where cops and non-LEO are on the same firing line. I think the "blue wall" that separates the two cracks at least a little bit when they see how safe, responsible and accurate the rest of us are.

I think police support will be one of the keys to keeping the place open.
If you are "on the job" and have used the Range, please speak up, or if you know someone who has used the Ardsley Range, please nudge them to speak up. [email protected]

CBS News has a story about us, including some aerial footage that interestingly shows how unlikely an escapement really is (we only use pistol calibers and .22lr, no .223, etc)

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2014/07...dents-to-call-for-closure-of-local-gun-range/


Now for the other issue. It's no secret that Westchester County is full of residents who lean opposite of the pro-2A crowd. Documentary/Indie films attract viewers who are even more so. And especially this one:
http://livingfor32.com/screenings/
It centers around Colin Goddard, badly wounded survivor of the Virginia Tech Shooting.

Afterward, a panel discussion in which two anti-gun people will be onstage, with one pro-gun person, Ben Rosenshine of Blueline Tactical.

I'm encouraging people near Ossining, NY to attend this screening and discussion on Thursday, July 17 6:15 PM at the Ossining Library to add our numbers, and if given the opportunity to ask questions or speak, please ask thoughtful,polite questions.
And whether he is present or not, to show at least some respect to Mr. Goddard. I read a lot of Internet vitriol (not on THR, elsewhere) directed against this man, and it sickens me - he was shot up and saw classmates die.

If you can't make it to the Ossining screening, be assured that the film is making a circuit around the nation, and opportunities will emerge to see the film and make the opposing voices felt, if not heard.

That's about it - I hope this was an appropriate posting for this section of THR. Would love to see some of you at the Ossining screening.
 
You'll need to do a lot more to reach out to the LE users than posting here since we're not likely to have very many members from those departments.

Does the range have a list of departments using the range? Are those departments in any of the townships part of this decision? Have the training officers for those departments been contacted? Have the departments provided any estimates about what their additional costs for qualification and training will be if the range is affected? Have the heads of those departments been informed so they can go to the public meeting on the proposed law or actually speak ahead of the meetings to the responsible parties so the law can be tabled? Have the townships come up with a plan to come up with the additional funds to train and certify those officers?
 
Admittedly, I'm sort of "grasping at straws" here. I'm trying everything I can.

The Range only has handwritten sign in sheets. I made PDFs of them and another Member is apparently making a tally of officers using the facility.

I don't think anyone from my Range has gone that far yet, certainly not doing any sort of financial estimates, nor making broad-based attempts to reach out to area LEO department heads. I choose my words with care and purpose. I wasn't kidding when I called the town of Greenburgh a "weird" entity - a lot of those departments are part of that town, and it seems like Greenburgh's tentacles extend beyond town limits. I fear there is political cost for active duty LEO even at the leadership level, to speak on the Range's behalf.

I'm hoping someone can prod some of the "three letter" agents/agencies that use it to speak up, as well. As locally powerful as Greenburgh is, I can't see them making trouble for Feds if they speak "out of turn."

Retired officers shoot there for free, and requalifying for LEOSA is something they can do at Ardsley. Certainly no risk for retirees to speak up, someone has to get a hold of them...
 
The very real expense if the officers for the departments have to qualify somewhere that charges them for use is a real political issue for the town when it is pointed out that it will cost them, and the tax payers, those extra dollars. There wouldn't be any political fallout for the departments reporting the additional budget impact or the impact of not having officers qualified as long as they're not taking a political position.

There's also a potential that not grandfathering existing operations is against the law, but you'd need to contact the state NRA and NSSF range experts for an interpretation on that.

You guys need to come up with a plan and you should probably consult with the state 2A organization as well as the state NRA and Friends of the NRA right away.
 
You might also talk to some of the gun stores in the area and see if one of them supplies a lot of the local police departments. They could have some good contacts and a good rapport with the police, and would make, in my opinion, obvious allies.
 
Best of luck. The way I hear it, a lot of ranges are under attack on the same basis, bullets and fragments found off-range.

In one locale I know about, it is alleged that one particular anti-gun individual has snuck out onto a major range, dug fragments out of the backstop, and scattered them around residential areas and hiking trails, thereby fomenting anti-range sentiment among the residents.

In one case, an un-engraved bullet was presented as evidence.

This was in a far western state whose gun site I frequent. I mean far western. :)

This seems to be becoming another strategy of anti-gunners to establish yet another choke point regarding firearms usage, and there's no readily apparent way to counter it.

Accusations are cheap. Defense is expensive.

Terry
 
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My first thought was " how do they know a bullet fragment originated from the gun range"? Could it not have come from other sources?
 
I suggest that claims of a bullet fragment outside of reasonable range/location is an error or fabrication and that proof be required that it came from your range.
 
LEO's were possible problem

I am a retired LEO,and did use the range I shoot at when I was on the job.

We ran qual's there often ,as well as police academy classes.

We were shut down for a time after 300 expended pistol rounds were found on the MILITARY AIR BASE behind the range.

It was reported that all found rounds were pistol,and that was about the same time the rnage was closed --- except for police to run courses.

I am positive that not all rounds found were from the LEO's shooting,but there was some blame to lay all around.

We had 'baffles' built that stopped the chance of any round reaching that base again,and rules were instituted to not allow pistol rounds to be fired in a manner that would allow aforementioned problem to arise again.

Hope you win,its a battle that NEEDS fighting AND winning.
 
scaatylobo said:
I am a retired LEO,and did use the range I shoot at when I was on the job.

We ran qual's there often ,as well as police academy classes.

We were shut down for a time after 300 expended pistol rounds were found on the MILITARY AIR BASE behind the range.

It was reported that all found rounds were pistol,and that was about the same time the rnage was closed --- except for police to run courses.

I am positive that not all rounds found were from the LEO's shooting,but there was some blame to lay all around.

We had 'baffles' built that stopped the chance of any round reaching that base again,and rules were instituted to not allow pistol rounds to be fired in a manner that would allow aforementioned problem to arise again.

Hope you win,its a battle that NEEDS fighting AND winning.
Click to expand...

I think you meant Blue Mountain, which is near Camp Smith? Cortlandt area? The Ardsley Range is near a strip of land that has powerlines and some other ConEd infrastructure. ConEd sold off some of the land for the housing development. I don't think there was ever a military installation in mid-Westchester. Not enough room. And I do recall some escapement claims against Blue Mountain.
 
A range a few hours away from yours, that I was a member of, had pretty much the same type of thing happen. In our case it was a clown that move in without doing his homework but he happened to be politically connected.

He made enough noise and rally enough people to have the range closed.

The one thing we had going was that police from a number of surrounding towns qualified there.

We got the state to assist in funding for a new indoor range and along with money from our club and other areas, we had a modern indoor range built.

I liked the outdoor range much better because there were much fewer issues with it. An indoor range takes a lot of maintenance but it is far better than the alternative, nothing.
 
We had the same thing happen out here. The home owner had all the anties stirred up. He clamed that he was shot at and had the bullets to prove it! The problem with his story was the bullets that he had were never fired through a gun. I haven't heard any more rumblings from the anti folks since.
 
hso said:
... There's also a potential that not grandfathering existing operations is against the law, but you'd need to contact the state NRA and NSSF range experts for an interpretation on that.

You guys need to come up with a plan and you should probably consult with the state 2A organization as well as the state NRA and Friends of the NRA right away.
Click to expand...

The range should also consult a good property attorney. "Even in NY", a constitutional prohibition against taking property without just compensation comes into play. But there are a number of complications here. The private range is on land leased from the a ConEd (albeit leased for more than 50 years!).

Normally, if a use predates the zoning plan, it should be permitted to remain (as a nonconforming use), unless the town is willing to compensate the owner for the loss. if the property were owned outright by the range, the town should either have a grandfather clause or offer compensation. Because the range is a lessee, the town's attorneys may be playing with loopholes.
 
I am guessing that NY state doesn't have any sort of range protection laws? That is really the key to keeping outdoor ranges open as suburban sprawl moves closer to existing ranges, and city dwellers move to the country bringing their city mindset with them.
Is your club insured and endorsed by the NRA? They may be willing to throw some legal help your way. If the township changed their laws to shut down a currently conforming use, there probably is legal precedent to allow it to remain open.
 
rule303 said:
I am guessing that NY state doesn't have any sort of range protection laws?
Click to expand...

In NYS? Hardly, that I'm aware of.

rule303 said:
If the township changed their laws to shut down a currently conforming use, there probably is legal precedent to allow it to remain open.
Click to expand...

Getting a variance for non-conforming use would be best (under 200-100 of your local zoning ordinance). Otherwise, the town should be paying compensation for whomever owns the range. Again, the range was merely the lessee. The actual property is owned by a utility (ConEd). Under 200-100.B (dimensional non-conformity) - you might be able to make the case that the range can continue operations if it improves its safety measures in light of the zoning changes.

PROBLEM #2: ConEd is "reviewing the lease" according to news reports. That does not bode well either - the utility is likely looking for an out in the lease (again, probably having received a few well-placed phone calls. Some of those pushing for range closure appear to be fairly connected attorneys themselves (seeing some of the names referenced in various news reports).

I wish the OP and the range well. This looks like a steep (and expensive) uphill struggle that might entail retaining legal counsel to fend off both the town and the utility from two different attack vectors, in a less-than sympathetic area (politically and otherwise) just 20 miles north of mid-town Manhattan. Not a good place to be, so to speak. :uhoh: Hope I'm reading the tea leaves wrong here...

Press the local authorities to allow reopening the range as soon as possible, lest it be considered "abandoned" - the use is discontinued for just 6 months in Ardsley, non-conformity is no longer an option. This might be one of their strategies as well ...
 
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wojownik said:
In NYS? Hardly, that I'm aware of.



Getting a variance for non-conforming use would be best (under 200-100 of your local zoning ordinance). Otherwise, the town should be paying compensation for whomever owns the range. Again, the range was merely the lessee. The actual property is owned by a utility (ConEd). Under 200-100.B (dimensional non-conformity) - you might be able to make the case that the range can continue operations if it improves its safety measures in light of the zoning changes.

PROBLEM #2: ConEd is "reviewing the lease" according to news reports. That does not bode well either - the utility is likely looking for an out in the lease (again, probably having received a few well-placed phone calls. Some of those pushing for range closure appear to be fairly connected attorneys themselves (seeing some of the names referenced in various news reports).

I wish the OP and the range well. This looks like a steep (and expensive) uphill struggle that might entail retaining legal counsel to fend off both the town and the utility from two different attack vectors, in a less-than sympathetic area (politically and otherwise) just 20 miles north of mid-town Manhattan. Not a good place to be, so to speak. :uhoh: Hope I'm reading the tea leaves wrong here...

Press the local authorities to allow reopening the range as soon as possible, lest it be considered "abandoned" - the use is discontinued for just 6 months in Ardsley, non-conformity is no longer an option. This might be one of their strategies as well ...
Click to expand...

Right now the Range Mananger goes to work and locks the gate behind him. Is that enough to fend off the discontinued use issue? How about barbequing or BB gun shooting or archery?
 
Parsimonious - That's a question you're best served fielding with a local property / real estate law attorney.
 
P.I.-


To help defend your shooting range, I would want to speak with Martha Dean (Link).

She is a former Attorney General candidate in CT and more importantly, has successfully defended two shooting ranges that were under similar attack here in CT (one of which is mine, Metacon Gun Club in Simsbury, and the other is Blue Trails in Wallingford CT)

She really has the "been there done that" experience under her belt. Her website mentions that they have defended ranges around the country, so I wonder if she has defended even more than the two ranges I know of.
If anybody is the type of experienced pro 2A, litigator with the specialized knowledge needed about such matters, it's her.

Her office just so happens to be about 15 minutes from my house, so if you end up meeting with her, drop me a line.

Old news article about her victory at Blue Trails from Gun-Tests.
 
19-3Ben said:
P.I.-


To help defend your shooting range, I would want to speak with Martha Dean (Link).

She is a former Attorney General candidate in CT and more importantly, has successfully defended two shooting ranges that were under similar attack here in CT (one of which is mine, Metacon Gun Club in Simsbury, and the other is Blue Trails in Wallingford CT)

She really has the "been there done that" experience under her belt. Her website mentions that they have defended ranges around the country, so I wonder if she has defended even more than the two ranges I know of.
If anybody is the type of experienced pro 2A, litigator with the specialized knowledge needed about such matters, it's her.

Her office just so happens to be about 15 minutes from my house, so if you end up meeting with her, drop me a line.

Old news article about her victory at Blue Trails from Gun-Tests.
Click to expand...

That's not a bad idea. A bunch of guys from the Ardsley Range are familiar with the issues with Blue Trail. In addition, the NSSF directed us to a White Plains firm with experience in defending Ranges.

Thanks for everyone's input so far.
 
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