Saps and Jacks

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Gordon

Gordon

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Ones I still own: 3 beautiful Foster Jacks; one 8oz.,a duty type 12 .oz and a "Bucheimer" retro 14 .oz beauty I train with and have beat it up a bit on a heavy bag
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I prefer the flat sap in actual social use, they produce much less fractures and if hit flat and have rolled soft seams there is usually only a bruise! :evil:
A 8.0z Mad dog , a 16 .oz Mad Dog and a huge 32 .oz Mad Dog which I stuned a 400 pound domestic pig with which I sdidn't want to go into the pen with to stick it!:eek:
The other weird one is butter soft and almost comfy at 12 .oz too flexable for my taste, but unique !
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Very nice

When I got sworn in as LEO back in 1982,I was issued one and HAD to carry it to go on duty !!.

Now they are banned and I am very sorry for that.

One of THE best CQB tools that ever was invented.

Less lethal,and does the job.

We did get ASP expandable batons to replace these,and I was an instructor with that tool.

It was [ and still is ] VERY effective IF the brass don't have a hissy fit when you use an impact tool to stop attacks.

I do like your saps,a few are new to me and I envy you .
 
Nice collection.
I was issued one back in the day (72) and collected a few more. My favorite was a beavertail. Like Lobo said great CQB tool, especilly bar brawls, but now on the no no list.
 
alwilliam posted posted extensively on saps and jacks a few years ago. I don't remember any like your last one in those discussions. Nice looking collection.
 
I believe that last softy in the bottom pic is a Todd Foster "Frank and Beans". I was a member of the TPI forum when he developed that one and I seem to remember that being the name the forum bestowed upon it for its obvious resemblance to said items.
 
Gordon, great collection, thanks for the photos. Many years ago I had a Buchemier Convoy that rode in my sap pocket for years. I was trained by an old time beat cop in its' use. Never hit anyone above the elbow, unless they are really trying to kill you, was his golden rule. I only used mine once. I don't know who was more hyped-up him or myself. I smashed his right hand as hard as I could, and a big tough man went to his knees instantly.

I now have a Foster made Convoy, it's a high quality implement.

For those of you who don't know, if you hit someone in the head with a "jack" chances are you may kill them:(, so be careful.
 
I carried a gonzales 415 for a few years then upgraded to a 245. Fit perfect in the sap pocket of my uniform. Used it on a few occasions to persuade suspects to stop fighting. After a couple
"Love" taps they would comply. I saw a friends 187 and could never carry that monster.
 
Seeing them used out at the Club by local deputy and seeing them used up at the jail . I for one wish the public would force the Brass to reissue them and get some older guys to train them properly in there use. It fills a nitch between the gun and the stun gun. Properly used it is proven less than lethal option. I say this because of the amount of folks dying from stun guns.
 
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In a nameless bar in a nameless place in north central Az. in 2009 or so a drunk started to pull out a small semi auto he had concealed under his shirt while struggling with a guy sitting next to me.Be cause of the nature of the preceding heated argument and being I was obeying the law and not carrying a fire arm into an Az. bar I already had the small 8oz. Mad dog sap loop around my right hand with it still in my pocket . As the struggle crashed into me and I saw the gun about to be grasped the back of the antagonist's head who was drawing looked very inviting . It took 2 full power blows to lower back of head Bam Bam and he sprawled lights out on the floor, other retrieved the gun and Gordon got in his jeep and Di Di Mau Len! :)
 
Mad Dog sap

Who is Mad Dog saps? I have never run across that maker.
 
Kevin Mcclung made the 3 saps (not jacks which he hates) up 10 years back according to his specs: rolled seams with no abrasive edges, flat enough to be a semi beavertail slapper but ovoid in cross section so as to not reguire an absolute 90 degree strike and handle better. He used dust shot tightly compressed but no handle spring but the size and shape and the stitching and lead compression make them semi rigid (just right) and very compact for a slapper. The 8oz one is really marginal i feel for anything other than a bar slap as only a very unlucky strike to the thin areas of the head like the temple and face are gonna do serious damage IMHO.I think a sap has to be at least 14 .oz for "police" duty where you work nerve plexis areas and joints and large muscles and probably 16 .oz is ideal. Apparently LAPD and other agencies feel the same up thru the new century, I believe a 16 .oz Gonzales sap (specific) is still allowed in LAPD with permission. I have been trained on saps and jacks by NYPD detectives since I was 9 years old, almost 60 years back.The jacks used on heads are completely dangerous unless used in war as they cause depressed fractures of the skull. Even an 6 or 9 .oz jack works on nerve plexes but once again causes nasty injury. In my later teen years I have to admit a few athelete friends would take a whack to the nape of the neck with the old flat sap I purloined from relative cops. With a HALF SPEED swing of the old real wide 14 oz Denver carefully delivered to nape of neck it would stun us linebackers down to the ground for a number of seconds much to each other's beerful amusement. Back then my group steered clear of police out of respect ! Don't practice this at home, WARNING.
 
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Did not make the connection to the knife person Mad Dog. Does he still produce them for sale?
 
a sap hits with a flattened spread out surface area impact and a jack hits with a rounded surface concentrating the impact. Lead "dust" shot is usually used in the sap where as a lead casting is used in the head of a jack.
 
Yup AND self defense. The idea is to STOP instantly. Bleeding to death from cuts or most non CNS handgun hit take a while. Proper application of these weapons and you have no blood and the client goes down right now ! :evil:
For those considering a knife for defense the realities of the court system is someone shows up with zippers everywhere or is dead carries a lot more weight than a bruise or lump that goes away before trial , and pictures of proper use don't really show much! Once again the caveat is skillfully applied PROPERLY. An argument could be made that a martial art form is the best approach, allthough I never heard of jack and sap Kata .:confused:
Yes in most circumstances a nerve plexus hit will stop the action , the temptation comes in because as my uncle NYPD Detective taught me the way a slapjack is applied by them was a "rabbit punch" (I believe this was WW2 combat jargon) to the back of the head early on, you could be gentle with a controlled carefully aimed swing rather than batting full force as you are gonna in a fight and hitting the facial regions ect.
If you struggled before or after cuffing or gave signs of flight or other felonious action you were likely to get sapped :evil:
Now I never was told by a cop, nor saw first hand abuse of saps or jacks by guards or interrogators , but no doubt they occurred in the US and is pretty common world wide .:uhoh: .
To me anyway a much more humane and cleaner close in weapon than a small gun or knife , too bad I can't legally carry one where I live and I am getting too old to get the outlaw on .:neener:
 
Hate to be that guy but time for the medical professional to throw some cold water on this. Saps were common before the invention of MRI machines and medical understanding of Traumatic Brain Injury. It's not just abuse that got them to go away, its that they had side-effects even when used correctly. You had guys going permanently blind in one eye, people dying from an intracranial bleed in the holding cell (sometimes days later), others with speech deficits, balance or neurological symptoms for months or years, or permanently. No amount of training or "proper usage" prevents this from happening. The brain is a delicate and unpredictable thing don't you know.

Like a lot of effective less-lethal devices, their "effectiveness" also lead to their overuse in situations where that level of force and risk of injury was not warranted. You had guys getting sapped for mouthing off while handcuffed, hitting suspects from behind while they were unaware because it make the overall take-down easier. There are occasion where the head-strike simply didn't work like expected because people's brains and skull shapes are all different, so the cop hits them over and over again.

Now that said, while usage in law enforcement might be problematic, I can see the merits as defense weapon. Most threats faced by a civilian where the use of force is warranted tend to be the lethal variety or very close to it, and overall civilians use force a tiny fraction of the time compared to LEOs.
 
I carried and used both a sap and a blackjack on the street many years ago. For me they were not effective since I just wasn't willing to do the damage they are capable of - so I quit carrying them long before we were ordered to (for my agency that was sometime before 1980...). I learned the hard way that for me simply running your opponent head first into something like a wall or vehicle worked much better all around... Yes, you can absolutely kill with a head strike (and not just with a slapper you can kill with a nightstick or a metal flashllight -look up the MacDuffy case down here in south Florida - and the riots that occurred later....).

I'm sure that there are individuals, both skilled and un-skilled, that still carry and are perfectly willing to use these kinds of weapons but here's what I told my own son a few years back... There's many a gray area out on the street if you're in a situation where officers are called (or they just happen to find you late at night...). A situation where a warning would be appropriate if you're un-armed (we're talking something less than a firearm) changes immediately if you're holding a blackjack, sap, brass knucks, baseball bat, etc.... Wish someone had explained that to me when I was young. I survived my foolish years mostly by luck, a single arrest would have barred me from a career in police work when I finally grew up...
 
@Glistam et al

I am free to disagree = and I do.

I taught defensive tactics [ at police academy ] and I got to use them a great deal on the street for 26 years as LEO.

I truly see any and all strikes to pressure points and bony parts of the body [ hands,forearms ,shins ] to be as effective as any strike can be to a highly intoxicated fighter.

I used ,ASR [ Mace ] ,ASP baton,wood baton,sap,blacksjacks,and any and all tools that I had in hand [ Taser = radio etc ].

If you take the time to TARGET the correct area,you can get a real effect.

Not every time,but that is the reality of combat.

I wished that all were trained in the lawful and proper use of ALL impact tools.

Might save a officers butt,and less damage to the perp too.

I did teach all my students that IF you get out with a 26" wood baton IN YOUR HAND ,you stand a very good chance of NOT needing to use it.

Tucked under the arm ,or carried in "short presentation" along the arm = it presents an argument to NOT ATTACK THE MAN WITH A STICK IN HIS HAND.

Worked for me,and I was 5'4" and weighed 185 ,not a large fearful sight.

I did take and teach the wood baton for all of my 22 years in the academy --- I was VERY good with it and I am thankful I had it many times.

Must have done a few million repertitions on the bag with it.
 
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I made the brown one. It's a copy of a sap my buddies dad carried when he was Dallas PD. The other one is I'm sure, local made and old. Very limp. Handle may be rope or horse hair filled.

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Old Honolulu PD issue 16 oz Buchmeir blackjack.
DPD 4 ply Texan slap.
Denver sap with flat spring in handle.

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Two flat pocket saps and a small blackjack.

I have more, but that's a good representative sample. I carried the 4 ply Texan for awhile...sadly, no more. There is not a better close in fighting tool ever...well, if you don't want to kill someone anyway.

I've carried a straight stick (a Koga club) on me or in my car every day for close to thirty years.

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That's a quick shot of it in my squad. I just replaced it with an old coco bolo straight stick. That's some heavy wood.
 
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My dad carried a Texas slapjack when he was a LEO and I got to see him use it on a large corn-fed, belligerent drunk when I was about 13.... made a believer out of me. I can't legally carry one down here even with my CCW permit (or so I was informed when I took the class last week), and I think that's a shame. I would like to try the palm sap made by Green Man Leather
 
I inherited a jack from my dad, no idea who made it or where he got it, but as I recall it has a coil spring handle, and is covered completely in woven leather. I'll have to see if I can find it and take a couple of pics.
 
Ah yes,great tools for social disputes.But now we live in an era of diminished brain capacity.Nice collection,these rank right up there with extruded aircraft aluminum.
 
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