to crimp or not to crimp auto pistol rounds?

am i alone in my process?

Click to expand...

Pretty much.

Most people bell the brass to help get the bullet in straight without scraping it.

Most people crimp to at least remove the bell. That's all the crimp my pistol loads get.

A lot of people fill 50 cases at a time just to see any cases that are filled a little to high or low.
I use a progressive so I don’t get to compare ether.

In the end if you are happy with your loads, that’s all that matters.

If you are happy with the process and the results, your process is fine.

The following are comments based on my loading on a single stage press.

p228alex said:

i know this is an old debate, and ive done alot of searching.

but i wanted to know the current, most up-to-date opinion on wether o not i should be crimping my pistol cases.

i reload 380 acp, 9mm luger, 40 s&w, 45 acp, and 357 sig.

i use berry's plated bullets, which all have a nice rounded base of the bullet that for me doesnt require any flareing /belling of the case mouth for me to seat the bullet. yes sometimes i have a small amount of copper shavings that are TINY, and are only really noticable after doing about 50 to 100 rounds before i can see the build up on my press.

theese are all just plinking rounds i make, and so far of the several thousand ive shot, ive never had a problem with bullet setback, or pull out. even with the 357 sig.

am skateing on thin ice? or am i actualy doing it the correct way, and in the process saving myself alot of extra time by bypassing some steps in the reloading process??

my reloading dance goes somethen like this...

1. wash brass in my wifes spaghetti strainer, with soap and hot water.

Nothing wrong with washing your cases but most folks do not. If you continue, I would get a colander dedicated to reloading to prevent you from ingesting any lead. Keep the food stuff and reloading stuff separate.

2. let dry for a few days, then tumble in crushed walnut for a few hours, up to 12, depending on the age of the walnut and the condition of the brass.

Most folks who tumble, dry tumble. Some folks wet tumble with stainless steel pins. Some folks like me, tumble after I have resized the cases. Some folks tumble before.

When I have used a wet process, I let the cases dry for several days. Some folks accelerate the process using some kind of heat source but getting the cases too hot will damage the cases.

3. resize and deprime in onestep on the single stage press., lube every few cases as needed.

If you are using carbide sizing dies, or dies with a hard ring built in them, lubricating the cases is not necessary except for 357 SIG. On the other hand, I have started to spritz a little lubricant on my large cases, such as 44 Magnum or 45 Colt, as it makes the resizing process go more smoothly but it is not necessary and not needed with smaller cases.

Virtually all handgun resizing dies made today are carbide style and do not need lubricant. In the past, there were steel dies and if you are using steel dies, lubricating the case is necessary.

357 SIG is a special case as it is a bottle neck case. You will only find steel dies for resizing that cartridge. So, you will need to lubricate them.

4. tumble again in crushed corncob for that brilliant golden shine.

I tumble after resizing.

5. pick media out of prime pockets and inspect each and every case, as i also sort by headstamp.

I do not sort my handgun cases but there is nothing wrong with that if it rings your bell. As different brand of cases are slightly different,, in theory sorting by head stamp will make your ammunition more uniform. I am not that good a shot to notice.

It is a good idea to make sure the flash hole is crear of obstructions.

6. prime using a hand priming tool and also recheck the brass again for anything i may have missed.

Historically, I have used a hand primer even when loading on a progressive. As I age, my hands cannot do to large batches of priming required for sessions on the progressive press so i have begun using a bench priming tool. I still hand prime for small batches, 100-200 cases or so at a time.

The extra inspection step is good. i have found many split cases during the priming phase

7. and for the finally, i pour in my powder, then pt it in the press and push the bullet in. and im done. no crimping, ( and of course i check about every tenth round for COAL and powder weight.

You can put powder in each case and then seat the bullet, your choice. The loading process can be safely sped up if this stage is done in batches.

On a single stage press, I charge the cases in batches. I set up 50 or 100 in loading trays, charge the cases, check that powder is in each case and then seat the bullets. I am mostly looking for gross over or under charges. When I have pulled cases that I think are a little over or under, their powder weight has been spot on. It just settled differently in the case during the powder drop.

But, it is not a bad idea to err on the safe side, pull suspect cases until you get an idea what to look for.

My limit of 50 to 100 cases is mostly due to limited bench space. At times, I could do more but i run out of space to adequately handle the trays without risk of spilling them.

I taper crimp all my auto pistol cartridges to remove the belling from the mouth expanding process. I prefer to taper crimp in a separate step, a habit i developed decades ago and can't seem to break. Crimping while seating is certainly acceptable.

Some folks expand their case mouths such that taper crimping is not necessary. I find I shave less bullet material, particularly with cast and plated bullets, if the case has a small bell on it and the inside edge of the case mouth has been chamfered.

Taper crimping does not increase the ability of the case to grip the bullet better. Proper neck tension does that and that is accomplished by the size of the neck expander. In fact, over crimping can cause problems.

by the way i load the powder into each case right before i put the bullet in. i dont fill 50 cases up with powder, and then put the bullets in them. i find that way too cumbersome and slower, for me

am i alone in my process?

Click to expand...

Hope this helps.

cfullgraf said:

I do not sort my handgun cases but there is nothing wrong with that if it rings your bell. As different brad of cases are slightly different,, in theory sorting by head stamp will make your ammunition more uniform. I am not that good a shot to notice.

Click to expand...

I am in the camp of sorting by headstamp. My only reasoning behind it is that some brass are constructed differently (look at Ammoload), so sorting it just remove one of the variables. One added benefit is that when pick up my brass again after a range visit, I can then just look at the headstamp and have a good idea what the reload history is based on my records.

I don't bell or crimp any of the rimless pistol cartridges that head space on the mouth. I just put a light chamfer on the mouth so the bullet will start / set up straight, and won't shave. I get total neck tension, and it also eliminates over or under crimping issues. Been doing it that way ever since the .40 cal. came into production.

And since your using plated, a light chamfer would probably be prudent, to prevent damaging the plating.

GS

If I wet clean I, remove the primers first (universal deprimer), do not want to trap water. I no lube for straight wall brass since all my dies are TiNi coated. Similar to carbide but a lot slicker, lower friction.

I do use a expander (PTX) for the fact that it gives you more uniform neck tension. Not max like your doing, but it does not lower it much either. I sort/remove all RP brass out due to thinner wall and lower neck tension. Sorting all head stamps will give you more consistent ammo. Every mfg seams to have a slightly different case volume.

I also do a separate TC to only remove any flaring. I do the bare min of 0.001"-0.002" reduction, this varies depending on case length. I do not trim my TC brass, just the ones that require a Roll crimp. With BE shooting some report better accuracy doing a lot more at the low velocity. I think this has more to do with the way the leads are cut in the barrel. But this is just speculation. For they think it increase pressure to a more uniform combustion. My guns do better with the std TC amount. Normally when you over do the TC you loose neck tension due to brass spring back and lead not. This is why I believe it's related to how the leads are cut in the barrel.

I use the finer 20/40 corncob media which will not block the primer hole, falls through.

For my BE loads I use the same mfg brass that are within 0.002" of each other, toward max length. I want a minimum free bore when chambered. If I by chance have a high primer it will not go into battery, my chamber is that tight. Most of the brass is too short unless I'm using Starline, which is the most consistent in COL. This brass I handle separately for I do not want to measure and sort again. Very time consuming.

It all gets down to is what works for you and your goal. For max accuracy it's just like rifle brass, very time consuming. For general practice not needed unless your seriously into BE shooting. Then you know what accuracy you expecting with such loads.

What do you think the washing does? You really don't need to tumble twice either. Handgun cases are usually sized in a carbide die with no lube. And they do not have to be shiney.
Taper crimping is more about reliable feeding than keeping the bullet in place.

More tumbling and lubing than I find necessary, but no harm in it.

BUT I DO think it's a good idea to rinse the cases if you are shooting outdoors and picking the cases up off the ground. Gets rid of the sand and grit, some of which might stick to a case during tumbling if not removed. Can raise hob with the sizer die. Agree, do get a dedicated colander.

Added: When shooting outdoors it's not unusual to pick up brass intermingled with the brass you just shot that is half full of packed clay, perfectly fitted gravel chunks, and spider webs. Rinsing is the best way to get rid of this crud.

If you can get the bullet into the case without undue scraping or shaving, you should be OK. As long as you're not getting any setback. What works works.

IMO, not belling or crimping will deliver a more consistent neck tension if, you don't use brass that is all trimmed to the same lengths.

This is because those cases which may be longer than others will receive more TC than those which the TC die was adjusted for, which decreases neck tension.

Those which are shorter than what the TC is adjusted to, will receive less TC, thus also creating a loss of neck tension due to the bell not being closed up.

I view not belling or crimping as a win, win situation.

GS

IMHO the OP's situation is a mute point because the entire question is based solely on the use of one, single brand of bullet. As soon as he finds out he can buy the Rocky Mountain Reloading plated bullet for about $20 cheaper per 1000, the whole scenario will evaporate like the dew. Then he'll be right back belling and crimping with the rest of us.

If anyone wishes to phrase this in the larger reloading context of "Are special reloading process steps ever taken based on components?", then the answer is 'Yes, certainly'. E.g. reloading straight-side plated bullets for a revolver.

I don’t wash brass, but I do dry tumble for an hour or so with walnut with polish before I size/deprime. The sizing is a lot smoother. Then they go back into the tumbler for a few hours to polish and clean out the primer pockets. With lead and plated bullets, I do neck bell and taper crimp. Actually, I taper crimp with the sizing die just enough to remove the bell.

I think I failed to clarify my point Walkalong, but I fully understand your point, and to a great degree I agree with you.

First of all, for those who don't trim rimless pistol brass, which would probably account for most reloaders, variations in untrimmed brass lengths can easily swing from shortest to longest by .010", or a good deal more. Being that I always trim my brass, all brass, I'm not blindly making this statement. Now again, being that most do not trim, I would assume, and with some level of accuracy, that those who don't trim probably don't measure them, therefore picking one or two cases during seating to use for adjusting the crimping and belling function. This alone is a factor that will most certainly effect the degree of crimp and bell employed, and those cases at the extreme end of the length spectrum are obviously going to suffer over or under crimping / belling.

So with the above considerations, it's fairly obvious that neck tension will be spotty, with the likely hood of some cartridges suffering significant variations in neck tension.

Now, consider that one has not introduced the variations, each bullet will have a fairly consistent amount of neck tension, effected or varying by brass thickness or metallurgy alone. What's more, brass thickness and metallurgy this is a constant factor, and would also be experienced regardless. So in retrospect, by not belling or crimping, at least two variables have actually been reduced or even eliminated, that being, variations the result of using untrimmed mixed brass.

But IMHO, the primary benefit of not belling or crimping is no doubt maximum obtainable neck tension, because the brass isn't being subjected to the inconsistencies associated with a varied degree of belling, and a variation in how much bell is removed, or over crimped. And with the most impending factor experienced when loading rimless cartridges is clearly set back, one can hardly argue that maximum obtainable neck tension would be a negative factor. I can't imagine there is any such concern as too much neck tension when loading rimless cartridges, but there certainly is a high level of concern regarding insufficient neck tension.

In closing, if a reloader makes up a batch of rounds using the bell and crimp method, they may only experience 1% with insufficient neck tension, or it could amount to 10%, it really doesn't matter, it can still create a serious issue if it induces excessive set back, no? So then what is the negative in achieving the absolute maximum obtainable amount of neck tension, even if some may have slightly more or less, but that all will have the maximum obtainable?

GS

One piece of advice

Get your own, dedicated strainer. Do not mix food handling tools with loading tools. Even if there is zero chance of contamination, keep peace within your household.

Lost Sheep.

I trim ALL my cases to a standard length, for the caliber I'm reloading. Consistency being key for accuracy. BTW almost ALL cases are not "square" at the case mouth from the Factory. I adjust my expander, seater, and taper crimper to the trimmed length. I also size/deprime BEFORE wet tumbling with SS pins (spotless primer pockets). I don't chamfer the inside or outside of my cases...the wet tumbling removes any burs. I've noticed that different headstamp cases have different size flash holes, so I run all new cases through my drill press and uniform the holes to 7/64 (large primers). Doing all this "unnecessary" extra work has GREATLY improved the quality and accuracy of my ammunition...almost all of which is range pick ups. Now, no matter WHAT headstamp the cases are, except for wall thickness, they are all uniform. I know, I know, "you don't need to do all that crap", just slap it together. But eliminating all the variables contributes to the best quality/accuracy I can get from my reloads...

I use mixed range brass produced in scores if not hundreds of different factories. Going through it is like a geography lesson.

I never measure brass length. I use a very slight bell and remove just enough of it with the taper crimp to ensure chambering. Verified periodically in the process with a max cartridge gage and plunk tests. Also occasionally measure OD at case mouth.

Never any setback. Verified periodically with strenuous press tests. I've re-verified with actual chambering tests at the range and never have any setback.

Measuring brass, sorting by headstamp, culling "thin" or "thick " brass cases are all very fine procedures and don't hurt a thing. I understand the logic behind this approach. I've just never found them necessary.

Personal issue each reloader must decide for him/herself.

gamestalker said:

IMO, not belling or crimping will deliver a more consistent neck tension if, you don't use brass that is all trimmed to the same lengths.

This is because those cases which may be longer than others will receive more TC than those which the TC die was adjusted for, which decreases neck tension.

Those which are shorter than what the TC is adjusted to, will receive less TC, thus also creating a loss of neck tension due to the bell not being closed up.

I view not belling or crimping as a win, win situation.

GS

Click to expand...

Not belling and crimping will give you max but unless your sorting head stamps it will not be uniform across the board. Some mfg of brass have thinner walls. Which in turn will not reduce the inside diameter the same as a thicker wall. The reason I use an expander. Using an expander (providing it's the right size) all of the inside dia become the same. But you will still have some variation in neck tension due to different wall thickness. With an expander you can set it up so you do not bell.

The main thing is to have the expander sized right so you get proper neck tension.

p228alex said:

Yeah i dont know if its worth saving $20 , but spending more time belling and crimping. But i guess everyone has there own ways of doing things thanx for all the input guys. I feel better now.

Click to expand...

I'm confused here. You spend time washing your brass and then let it sit a few days to dry. Then you tumble for up to 12 hours and tumble again after you lube the brass which shouldn't be necessary. BUT, you don't want to flare the neck or add a light taper crimp to remove the flare so you can save time???

Flaring and add a slight taper crimp will add no time whatsoever to your loading time since both are accomplished by a die adjustment.

You can do as you please because like said above, if it works it works but telling us you don't do it because you want to save time while doing a lot of things that waste time just confuses me... lol

p228alex,

If the way you 'do it' meets your needs, why worry.

Everyone will have a slightly different way of doing most everything.

I have different process steps for not only different cases but also for the same cases with different loads/uses.

I bulk most of my .45s and if they don't look all that nasty, are never cleaned. Where my .40s are all cleaned, but the cases destine for jacketed loads get a bit more.

The closest I get to a 357 Sig is my 8MM Nambu, both are bottle necked. How I process for them doesn't count as I load and shoot so few of them.

Don't have or want a 380 or 9. I have been stuck with helping my brother load for his 9. Then he sold it to one of my granddaughters other grandfather and I still get to help from time to time.

For my 'good stuff' loads, .223 Rem target stuff, I punch the primers first, wet tumble w/SS pins, rinse and dry before full length sizing and a second wet tumble/rinse/dry followed by trimming (every one, ever loading). From there on it is a process when I need what ever loaded. The 5.56 type loads don't get this degree of processing but they get shoved into an AR type and tossed into the dirt and grit (maybe they should get the super cleaning over the brass out of the bolt gun?)

So, some seldom get any cleaning and others get much more. It is your option.

Forgot the crimping part...
I do a 'Factor Taper' crimp on 40s and .300 BlackOuts and only iron out any flair on the rest with the exception of 44 Mags, a medium to heavy crimp not so much to hold the bullets from 'walking' but for a better powder burn. I don't even crimp my .375 H&H mag loads, but then they go in a Ruger Number 1.

Seems like a lot of over thinking for many. I just take a pile of mixed cases, slightly flare so the bullet doesn't shave, crimp just enough to take the flare out and pass a plunk test with my barrel.

Load up a few dummy rounds (no primer, no powder) and cycle them through your pistols, measuring the OAL after each time. If you get bullet setback (reduced OAL) before three times loaded from slide lock, you need to increase your crimp. Otherwise you are fine as long as you don't over do it with cycling the same round in the pistol by loading and unloading it.