Does gun registration do anything positive?

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Mark13

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I was talking to a northern relative who was aghast that the "govt" didn't know what guns Floridians have. Yeah I know it's the first step to confiscation, but in Fl we don't have it(hopefully never will) and I'm just curious.

Are there any LEO's here who can say from experience that it helps investigating crimes? I have always thought registration was a waste of police resources, as criminals don't register their guns.

I would think that if gun registration wasn't a complete waste of effort I would be hearing endless statistics about how it prevents crime from all the antigun orgs and news media.
 
Does gun registration do anything positive?
Provided they didn't destroy them anyway, it would allow stolen firearms to be returned to their owners. You'd be surprised how many people don't record the serial numbers of their firearms.

However, the negatives of registration far outway any potential positives results.
 
Provided they didn't destroy them anyway, it would allow stolen firearms to be returned to their owners. You'd be surprised how many people don't record the serial numbers of their firearms.

Seems to me if one's too dumb to write down serial numbers and keep receipts, one's... Aw, never mind.

Firearms registration schemes keep public trough feeders in pay checks, and make it easier for governments to steal firearms. I've never heard of a crime being solved on the basis of registration records. I've never heard of a criminal who paid it any mind, and in fact, in at least one state, the People's Republic of California, criminals have been exempted from the requirement to register their firearms, since to do so would be to incriminate themselves.

Government always believes more government is better. Surprise!
 
It might serve some purpose in preventing felons/wackos/druggies from purchasing firearms retail.

Wait. That would be 'background checks'.

Nevermind
 
Does car registration prevent auto thefts?

Until criminals start registering their guns, gun registration won't do much as a crime deterent. At best it just makes people who are afraid of firearms feel warm and fuzzy.
 
and for a purely pragmatic consideration

look closely at the Liberal Party Registration Legislation in Canada. I'll let our Canadian members provide the links if you want, but this 'program' is a classic example of combining bureaucrats and good-feel law making and expense. And all it would ever provide is a database for when the time confiscation is attempted.
 
It might serve some purpose in preventing felons/wackos/druggies from purchasing firearms retail.

Sure does. I've got a cousin that fits that bill to the T and he shot two guys about a year ago over a drug deal gone bad.

Meanwhile I have to take time away from work and skip lunches so I can get my pistols inspected by the government.

Ahhh... I sleep safe at night knowing that legal firearm owners are properly inspected. Lfie if bliss and grand!
 
If it's combined with ballistic fingerprinting, it might be able to link a shooting crime to a stolen gun crime, and then investigators could cross-reference the data they've gathered for each case.

It's tenuous, I know, and it's dependent on ballistic fingerprinting working, which it doesn't always, but if it saves the life of just one child... :p
 
Essentially useless.

Let's look at what it might accomplish:

Surely, there isn't much that benefits John Q. Citizen to know Norman Neighbor owns a firearm; what would John do about it? No, the benefit seems restricted to LEOs being able to properly guage risk during the performance of their duties, and solving some crimes.

Suppose we implement perfect registration. In that world, every firearm transfer must go through a process that establishes the owner and address of every firearm.

Such a database would be able to answer questions such as 'are there any guns at 123 Main Street?' or 'does the owner of car X, license plate AAA 111 own any guns?'. With such answers available, our LEOs ought to be prepared for possible armed resistence.

Or would it work that way?

Suppose John Q. Public owns no firearms; suppose Gary Gunowner, a legal possessor of a registered firearm, is visiting John, and the police get a 911 call from John's house. Will the police know about Gary? Nope. Would a sane LEO rely on static data for his safety? Again, nope. Each contact requires that an officer prepare for a wide range of eventualities; at best the gun database information might suggest there may be a law-abiding citizen involved, but until every person is tracked 24/7 LEOs cannot eliminate the possibility of a firearm owner being in a place where there are no registered firearms.

A similar situation applies to traffic stops - what if John lends his vehicle to Gary?

LEOs must already act as if a firearm might be present; knowing that no legal firearm should be associated with a person or a place isn't enough, because firearms are mobile.

Even more simply: Gary registered his firearm while he lived at 123 Main Street. Later, Gary moved around the corner to 246 Pine Street, or he moved from Brownville to Greenville. There is always some lag in updating databases; should LEOs assume 246 Pine Street is gun-free, even if they can confirm Gary is present? Which data should rule - address or person? Should they assume 123 Pine Street is gun-free, even knowing Gary isn't there any more?

Registration just doesn't change anything for LEOs.

Let's look at crime solving. What crimes might this include? It has to be a crime where
(1) the firearm is recovered, at the scene or elsewhere, and associated with the crime
(2) a perpetrator is not arrested immediately
(3) physical evidence on the firearm can connect a person with the crime
(4) the registered owner of the recovered firearm can be located
(5) the registered owner of the firearm can be identified as the person whose physical evidence -- DNA, fingerprints, fibers, whatever -- is associated with the recovered firearm.

If the perpetrator of the crime is arrested in possession of the firearm, the tracing to a registered owner is unnecessary. If the gun is not recovered, tracing is not possible. If the recovered firearm were lost or stolen -- and properly reported, of course! -- step (4) is irrelevant. If the evidence doesn't identify that owner, the crime is usually no nearer being solved.

For this level of benefit, just how does anyone propose to justify the data collection, the administration and security, the inconvenience to the owners, and the cost of the whole thing? Look for example, at Canada's registration program - billions of $Canadian for nearly no benefit.

Look also at the BATF records on who owns machineguns and 'other weapons'. There really are not all that many, and it has been required that all be registered since 1934, yet the database is widely reputed to be quite corrupt and unreliable.

California, where I endure, has the 'all transfers must be recorded' rule. But it's imperfect - not all current transfers really go through a dealer (that's illegal); not all guns which moved here with their owners are registered (legal until 2001, I think, and then only handguns have to be registered); not all guns purchased in California were purchased after the 'all transfers recorded' rule was in effect, or even after the Feds began recording sales (all legal). Smuggling? Theft? Perfection is impossible.

See also Can Gun Control Work , James B. Jacobs, 2002, Oxford University Press, for a different take but similar conclusion.
He also refers to http://www.police.govt.nz/resources/1997/review-of-firearms-control/ "The Thorp Report" where New Zealand found registration to be unworkable and dropped it in 1983.
 
Yes. If you consider filling the government's coffers with registration money; and improving the private firearms collections of the authorities with confiscated firearms, there is a positive effect in there somewhere -- although in a drunken logic sort of way.
 
Are there any LEO's here who can say from experience that it helps investigating crimes?
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And so what if it does?
Ding Ding Ding! Warrantless searches help with solving crimes too.
 
Yes, what if it does? To keep and bear arms is an individual right, supposedly protected by the Second Amendment. To license or register a right is to change it from a right to a priviledge, is it not?

Beating confessions out of people might help "solve" more crimes. Doesn't do much for our civil rights however. The Founders realized that there would be a growth in govt. and that govt. was a necessary evil. Sort of like a fire; it can warm you, but don't let it get too big as to be beyond control. They knew that as govt. grew bigger, it would also become more restrictive and try to gain more control of the citizens. Read the writings of some of the Founders. They predicted this more than 225 years ago. They were wise enough to put some very severe limits on the government, as related to control over the "people". The Second Amendment states that we have a right to keep and bear arms, a right which shall not be infringed. Boy are we a long way from that point now.

Also, the Second Amendment does not grant the right to keep and bear arms, nor is the right to keep and bear arms dependent upon the Second Amendment for its existence. The Supreme Court has already ruled on that. You never hear the antis or the media highlight that finding, do you?

I don't care if registration was 100% effective in solving gun related crimes. It violates the Constitution, so arguing over it's effectiveness is really a moot point, if you believe the Constitution should hold govt. at bay with respect to our natural rights.
 
Yes, what if it does? To keep and bear arms is an individual right, supposedly protected by the Second Amendment. To license or register a right is to change it from a right to a priviledge, is it not?
In the abstract, I fully agree. On the ground, though it isn't right, I think we've lost this round, only because undoing laws is so difficult.

It's just my impression, but I think 'constitutionality' is not often a consideration of lawmakers. That's pretty upsetting, but since few lawmakers are constitutional scholars, it isn't very surprising.

Since I don't expect any individual Senator/Congressman/State whatever to evaluate the constitutionality of a law, I prefer to work on 'instrumentality theory' - will what you propose actually do anything? If not, why do you waste your/our time on it? That's closer to a 'practical' approach, but not base enough.

The real consideration is "will this get me re-elected?" Until we can elect people whose motivation is service, not power -- a tremendous change from what we have now, and a complaint as ancient as Rome, if not older -- those of us interested in justice and principle must deal with venality.

That's discouraging.
 
It's just my impression, but I think 'constitutionality' is not often a consideration of lawmakers. That's pretty upsetting, but since few lawmakers are constitutional scholars, it isn't very surprising.
I once asked David Skaggs (D-Boulder, CO) why they wrote these laws that were unconstitutional if they knew they were unconstitutional. He stated that the constitutionality of the laws they pass is not the purvue of the legislature; but that of the courts to decide the constitutionality of the laws.

The guy was a kook.
 
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