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  1. 1

    Strength of slide return spring in a 1911

    And the subject is the slide's velocity and momentum...not the momentum transferred to the frame and the hand via the springs. And both of you are still trying to ignore an outside force that opposes the slide's acceleration from the git-go. I'll try one more time, and then I'll give up...
  2. 1

    Strength of slide return spring in a 1911

    There are a few problems with that approach...not the least of which is variations in ammunition from lot to lot or even within the same lot. This still comes back to attempting to minimize slide to frame impact, and...as I've shown...the slide just doesn't hit the frame hard enough to be a...
  3. 1

    Strength of slide return spring in a 1911

    Momentum will be conserved unless an outside force...and you know the rest. You're still trying to ignore the outside forces that the slide encounters the instant it starts to move...forces that the bullet is not also subject to. And once the slide has lost speed and momentum to those outside...
  4. 1

    Strength of slide return spring in a 1911

    Probably for the same reasons that the original spring was 14.5 pounds...nominally. To make sure that the slide will return to battery even when the gun is dirty, dry, and/or neglected. Not everybody takes meticulous care of their guns.
  5. 1

    Strength of slide return spring in a 1911

    The availability of varied spring ratings makes that both convenient and possible...but back in the dead days before they were readily available, recoil springs were trimmed regularly in order to get the slide to cycle with light or "target" loads. Colt Gold Cups and their predecessors were...
  6. 1

    Strength of slide return spring in a 1911

    Yes. That's why I said that it's a hypothetical...and that we're assuming that acceleration is linear. And I mentioned that a fast powder would be used for the short barrel and a slow powder for the longer one. You haven't read it carefully. That's why I qualified it with "RATE" of...
  7. 1

    Strength of slide return spring in a 1911

    Let's do a hypothetical to illustrate the difference between muzzle velocity and rate of acceleration. I love hypotheticals because the only limit is the imagination. We have two .44 Magnum revolvers. One has a 2-inch barrel, and the other a 10-inch barrel. For the sake of argument, let's...
  8. 1

    Strength of slide return spring in a 1911

    I'm not arguing or denying the principles of the conservation of mementum...but momentum has to be established before it can be conserved...and if motion is impeded before full velocity is reached, full momentum is never established. If you jump from an airplane at 10,000 feet, and open a...
  9. 1

    Strength of slide return spring in a 1911

    Only in the absence of outside force or in the presence of equal outside force...and there are outside forces that are acting on the slide the instant that it starts to move. Outside forces that aren't acting on the bullet. Thus, the slide can never reach its theoretical maximum velocity and...
  10. 1

    Strength of slide return spring in a 1911

    If you're determining the slide's maximum velocity, then all that applies. But the slide's velocity /energy/momentum at the terminal point of its travel...when it hits the impact abutment...is the point of my post. The slide's maximum velocity is only part of the story...and in this case...
  11. 1

    Strength of slide return spring in a 1911

    It's way too complicated because it operates on the assumption that the spring is there to save the frame. It's not. It's there to return the slide. All the slide has to do is make full travel rearward and reliably return to battery. All else is irrelevant. A 16 pound spring for full power...
  12. 1

    Strength of slide return spring in a 1911

    The chart isn't all wrong. It's just a little too complicated. There's no sense in trying to precisely match a spring rate to the ammunition...because, the spring's function is returning the slide to battery, and whatever else it does is incidental. You can get by nicely with two springs...
  13. 1

    Strength of slide return spring in a 1911

    There's more to the ejection distance than slide speed in recoil. I set up a friend's Springfield exactly like my range beaters. 14-pound recoil spring...23-pound mainspring...1/16th radius on the bottom of the firing pin stop. Our ammunition is pretty much identical. My brass lands about...
  14. 1

    Strength of slide return spring in a 1911

    Just so. A point of interest is that...in the patents...Browning referred to it as the "re-action" spring and not the recoil spring. Since it's accepted that recoil is the reaction side of Newton 3, there may be a misunderstanding as to just what he meant by "re-action" spring, and it led many...
  15. 1

    Strength of slide return spring in a 1911

    In spite of that little hijack attempt... Recoil...which is what the slide does...is nothing more than backward acceleration, and its velocity is determined by the rate of acceleration and the force required to achieve that rate. By the time the bullet reaches the muzzle, the slide has gotten...
  16. 1

    Strength of slide return spring in a 1911

    I beg to differ, sir. I strive to stick to the facts. Apparently you didn't read the part where we discussed that "about" 90% of the bullet's velocity is obtained within a half inch of its travel...which means that the slide's velocity isn't wholly determined by muzzle velocity. It's a...
  17. 1

    Strength of slide return spring in a 1911

    And you're correct. Force forward is force backward. If there are X units of force accelerating the bullet, there are X units of force accelerating the slide. Well, I wasn't speaking in absolutes, nor was I interested in precise velocity figures. That's why I said "about" when I brought it...
  18. 1

    Strength of slide return spring in a 1911

    Back in 2007, gunsmith and custom knife maker Wild Bill Caldwell was our houseguest for 2 weeks while he attended an engraving class at Montgomery Community College. We'd discussed these muzzle velocity points at length online and over the phone, and he told me that he was bringing something...
  19. 1

    Strength of slide return spring in a 1911

    Let's do a little simple math. The combined mass of the barrel and slide in a 5-inch gun is roughly 32 times that of a 230-grain bullet..which means that the slide assembly's rate of acceleration is 1/32nd that of the bullet and thus the assembly's maximum speed will likewise be 1/32nd of the...
  20. 1

    Strength of slide return spring in a 1911

    Write a book. If only I had the time. I barely have time to make short posts on a couple of the gun boards. It's not about being correct in all small matters. These points are a matter of mechanical reality...and the reality is that the slide just doesn't hit the frame all that hard...even...
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