10MM 800x Hot Loads-Chrono'd

Status
Not open for further replies.
Z

Zero

Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2002
Messages
99
Location
Miami
Beartooth + 800X Chrono Results

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

Took out the new CED Millennium Chronograph today to run some new loads through it. I was working with some loads that Mcnett on Glocktalk gave me for hogs. These were done in Miami at sea level about 83F. 5 Shot averages. These loads were started low and worked up

G20 6"KKM: 22lb Recoil Spring and Stainless Guide Rod
200Gr Beartooth Gas Checked Flat Points
CCI 350 LP Mag Primers - firm taper crimp

9.0gr 800X 200 BTFP - 1264fps-709ft/lbs
9.3gr 800X 200 BTFP - 1293fps-742ft/lbs
9.6gr 800X 200 BTFP - 1327fps-782ft/lbs
9.8gr 800X 200 BTFP - 1370fps-833ft/lbs
10.0gr 800X 200 BTFP - 1393fps-862ft/lbs

The energy produced by these loadings is startling.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
wow. Those are WAY over max for 200 grain bullets, either lead or jacketed, according to Lyman 48th.

Lead...and in a Glock. and over max.


Good thing you got that disclaimer on there.

(I'd bump up to a .44 mag if you need those types of numbers on velocity and energy)
 
They are over max but

Loads worked up carefully and all spent brass checked for signs of excessive pressure. This is not a standard G20, it has a 6" KKM aftermarkent barrel with tighter chamber support and standard rifling to allow lead bullets, as well as a 22lb recoild spring. I don't believe that these exceed max pressure in the 10mm but then again I don't have pressure testing equipment. Loads were developed with new brass, and the fired brass didn't exhibit any significant bulging?
 
More than I would want to risk but the KKM should take the higher pressures OK. I wouldn't recommend making it a steady diet though, or put it through a standard G20 barrel :)
 
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.


I can get more power out of my 40sw than I can from 10mm with a Barsto barrel. And I can get allot more power with my Barsto barrel than I can with the stock Glock 10mm G20 barrel.

I can actually use higher powder charges in 40 sw than I can with 10mm with the same bullet and 10mm has a longer OAL.


10mm:
Book load:"Hi-Skor" 800-X, 00 gr. 7.8gr 1130fps 32500 psi
Experimental load:
14.2 gr., G20 Barsto, small case bulge, must stop, 82% overload


40sw:
Book load: 800X IMR load [current web site]: "Hi-Shor"800-X 6.3 gr. 925 fps, 2610 psi, 4" barrel, 1.125" OAL, Speer 200 gr. FMJ

Experimental load:
12.5 gr. and more requires double compression to make powder fit**
15.5 gr. the OAL springs out to 1.171", 15.5 gr. is ok, intense recoil +146% extra powder

The stock G22 barrel had .225" of feed ramp intrusion. The case webs 40sw ammo is only .180" thick. That left .055" of thin case wall unsupported. It does not take much extra pressure to start blowing a brass bubble down the feed ramp.

I had it TIG welded over for better chamber support:
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachme...=&postid=191655

Then I re cut the chamber and feed ramp in a way that supported all the way to the case web. Strangely, it seems to feed all bullets and ammo.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachme...=&postid=245376

I should warn you that this is not some loads that are safe. There are experiments. The metal might fatigue on the barrel. If you fool around, wear eye protection and don't let anyone stand on the right side where they could get hit with a flying extractor. Then back off from the experiment and consider that the proof load for some usable load.


-----------------
**To get 15.5 gr. of 800X to fit in a 40 sw case, fill it up, and seat a .4000+" diameter 2" length pin gauge fixed in a collet bullet puller[or a Lyman M die]. Add the rest of the 15.5 gr. of powder and seat the gauge again.

Then in a separate press, seat a 200 gr. bullet.
Then in a third press, partially resize the loaded ammo in a 40sw/10mm sizer die with the decapping stem removed. Check that the round falls into the chamber and there is no bullet pinch.
Last, don't shoot this round. The pressure is too high and the recoil too extreme.

--
A society that teaches evolution as fact will breed a generation of atheists that will destroy the society. It is Darwinian.
 
There isn't anything wrong with my loads

Those loads shoot just fine out of my gun the way it's setup. Remember the 10mm factory ammo and the reloading information has been neutered over the years. 10mm is capable of much more performance than what is published.
 
I WILL ADD THIS PROVISO:

I have pressure tested a bunch of the top end 800-X loads " published " on the net and to the last last one they were all ABOVE SAAMI specification pressure limits. Some of these loads are downright scary, guys.
Furthermore, there has been no attenuation of the 10MM NORMA's [ its' correct name ] operating pressures over the years but you will carefully note that the original NORMA loads with all those fancy-Dan FPS numbers were by and large HOOEEY though the pressures were WAY above wHere NORMA wanted them to be. I still have a considerable supply of this ammunition anf only shoot it in a custom large frame revolver anymore. Both the 175gr and the 200gr loads were nothing special in the terminal end performance arena.
 
I understand but.

If I'm working up loads from a smaller charge and carefully observing the fired brass for pressure signs (Waters Method), and there are no signs that my brass is bulged, then what's the problem. I think it would be pretty safe to say that the brass will start to show pressure signs before the gun blows up.
 
THAT IS NOT " SAFE TO SAY ", ZERO.

I have seen blown revolvers with the nicest round primers you'll ever see and not a hint of excess pressure anywhere on the head of the case. I recently saw a blown Colt 1911 and the case damn near looked normal! If you keep pushing the envelope it will blow someday, you can bet the ranch on it!! You are making far too many assumptions and these screaming 10MM loads will jump up and bite you bigtime. If you're not going to take into consideration there is a safety factor built into the guns and ammunition that you are exceeding please don't put the loads here for the uninitiated to imitate.
 
MODERATOR EDIT - - - -
Argumentative verbage removed.
Johnny Guest
H&R Moderator
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Maybe you guys that don't know who he is ought to take a gander around the net or ask the question and see exactly who this "Wil Terry" character is. That is his real name too by the way. His experience and credibility is something to consider seriously. When you find out who he is and what he does for a living re-read what he has written.

We have several UNBELIEVABLY experienced guys that post here for the benefit of all of us, lets please try not to get them torqued off, especially not when they are right. The knowledge they posess is irreplaceable.
 
Signs of pressure....

The typical "brass" pressure signs of expanded cases, loose primer pockets, and minor signs of extrusion apply to RIFLE cases, where chamber pressure runs in the 45,000-55,000 catagory.

10mm doesn't run that high. Not hardly.

Even if the barrel holds up for the first "X" number of rounds, this is a limited use device. All guns wear out eventually, this one will go sooner.

Make sure you wear your safety glasses.
 
Perhaps a little help...

there was an article in "Handloader" some issues ago that was titled "Pressure Guessing"

they took some rifle loads and "guesstimated" the pressure using Water's method, typical flat primer, ease of extraction, etc. Then, they used real laboratory quality equipment

After hundreds of experiments (under controlled laboratory conditions), the conclusions.....

the only way to measure pressure is to measure pressure. All other methods (Water's, flat primers, hard extraction, etc.) were anywhere from unreliable to outright dangerous. Varies by gun, caliber, conditions, etc...

Crux of the story was that, you may get away with excessive pressures for 500 rounds and everything looks great....

then on #501 the gun lets go

This was on rifles that operate at the 60,000# range. Handguns for the most part operate at far less so rifle criteria don't apply. Handguns are far harder to figure out

I have a G20 and I load it up, but I don't get crazy. If I want a blaster, I get my 45 LC or 44 mag and go at it.

Look at Wil's post again...he says "I've pressure tested...above SAAMI specs" I assume from that he wasn't guessing, assuming, or hoping. He was pressure testing.

I know you can go over Niagra Falls and live...a guy just did it a few weeks ago. Doesn't mean it works every time or it's a wise thing to do

It isn't worth another 50-100 fps to get maimed or killed

you may disagree.............but you're wrong
 
MODERATOR EDIT - - - Argumentative and abusive material removed.

Johnny Guest
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Another GT Newbie!

Personal attacks are not allowed on this board zero.
IF the MODS read this I sincerly request you be repremanded or removed both for your documented dangerous loads and your general temperment.
Better yet,
MODS Please remove This Thread!
 
Hold everything

Having computer problems on this end or much of the above thread would have already been redacted. Because I cannot do that, I am locking this thread temporarily - - If I CAN.

Johnny Guest
THR H&R Moderator

Later - - Okay, working better, using my wife's 'puter.

This is probably a good place to remind everyone to maintain our cool,even inthe face of disagreement.

With proper BOLD FACE warnings placed BEFORE the controversial stuff, even outlandish loads and experimental data may be posted. It is entirely ethical and respectful for other members to point out (perceived) errors in reasoning.

Okay, opening the thread again. The above edits were made for a reason. I'd prefer not to have to do any more.

Thanks for your cooperation.
Johnny
 
That's funny

If you scroll back to the top of the page you will notice that my original post is very friendly, only after other members of this board decided to attack me personally because I created some loads that were above spec, I took offense to it. Because as previously stated, if you dont' want to shoot them dont. Reprimand me, for what, standing up for myself. And Mr. Rockwell, if you read from the beginning you will notice that I'm not the one who started the attacks..And I in fact answered their questions and attacks until it started to annoy me that they just couldn't let it go. Perhpas some of the other reply's shold be removed also.
 
only after other members of this board decided to attack me personally
Click to expand...
:confused:
I just read the entire thread 3 times. I didn't see any personal attacks.

Safety was discussed.
Methods were refuted.
Dangerous practices were explained.
But there were no personal attacks. :rolleyes:

[sigh]
It would appear that for some, no explanation is required... for others, no explanation will do.
 
Okay, now - - -

Points made; Time to move on.

The original topic of this thread is a valid one: Hot 10mm loads for a particularly set-up pistol, and one member's experience and observations. Contributions by others based upon their experimentation and experience..

So long as we all abide by THR rules, and post adequate cautionary notes, as discussed in the float at top of this H&R forum, all will be well. :)

Johnny
 
From everything I've seen...

estimating pressure on field data is extremely suspect

is there a way that a given load can be checked under controlled (LABORATORY) conditions, or would the cost be prohibitive????
 
Thank you Johnnie Guest

I guess the admins don't see the real abusive posts by Mr. Terry such as..

I'M SORRY I WASTED MY BREATH, KID!
YOU JUST FLAT-OUT DON'T GET IT!

That seams more abusive than anything I wrote but oh well. I guess if someone read all but my original post, they would assume that I was recommending or demanding that my loads were perfect, or suggesting all 10mm owners use them. It was merely a post of chronograph results that I thought others in the hobby/sport might find interesting. But then everyone comes out of the woodwork and start the storm. What was so harmful about the original post???? Just for informational purposes guys.
 
Zero,

There have been 21 replies to this post.
7 of them by Zero.

As I am writing this, this post has been viewed 283 times. :what:

Now is it conceivable that someone may read something in one of these posts and misinterpret or otherwise misconstrue it?

Even something as simple as the Waters Method? Someone could misunderstand it as to be the gospel truth.

Do you remember reading the account in the newspapers of people who saw the movie Jackass and thought to themselves, "If they can do it it must be OK for me to do it too", sometimes with deadly results?

Also, if you would stop imagining this as a personal assault for a moment you might realize that when a long time, highly regarded, member advises you that he has, personally, pressure tested (that means using honest to gosg pressure testing equipment) loads similar to your and the results are "X", that maybe, just maybe that is a person worth listening to.

The true beauty of THR is it's diversity and tolerance. We accept anyone to drop in a chat. We listen to what they have to say. And we really really don't want to see ANYONE have an accident.

Now Zero, I don't know you from Adam's off ox, but the fact that you found your way into our midst and decided to join in, puts you in a different class already.

Personally I hope to my Lord that I never have to read a post about Zero or anyone else losing so much as a hangnail to a gun accident. (Much less an eye or a finger or even worse.) I'll bet that everyone else here feels that same way.

Don't take differenting opinions personally. It's your safety and the safety of others that we take seriously.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top