1911 fans only, please... REAL 1911 improvements?

[45auto]

Tuner,

You should be glad I don't design 1911's for a living.

I can only make counter impressions, not points because my knowledge is based only in what I experience or see/ read etc and don't have a great working understanding of various gun types, i.e. what's really better, etc.

I haven't seen or read about people replacing plunger tubes because they were damaged, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I have seen them work loose and become damaged. But, you must mean from dropping the gun, etc?
A lot of the double stacks(some single), variations have an intergral tube like Para, STI, SVI, Wilson KZ(?) and other plastic framed 1911's so I assumed it must be okay- maybe not!

I assumed, incorrectly perhaps, that the linkless bbl design didn't ride on the slidestop, consequently reducing stress due to poor bbl fitting or just age. I have experienced, know people and have read of breaking slidestops and links. Then again, every gun design seems to have their certain parts that break more often than others.

They should bring back that GI recoil plug. They will have one customer for sure.

Extractors, I like internals so no issue with me. It seems to be with other people; regardless I believe in a fairly short amount of years, if you want an internal, you choice of 1911's will become less and less.

I'll take your word on the drop in parts and magazines. I shouldn't have to add extra power springs to magazines. If they work the best, that's what the manufacturer should use. Little cost to them and I won't bad mouth their gun.

The grip safety I don't agree with. It is redundant but even if your thumb safety is off, you would still have to pull the trigger to fire. Again, I am trying to think of realistic circumstances where the trigger is pulled, while you are not holding the gun by the grip?? Perhaps, the thumb safety is off, person carries the 1911 without the trigger being protected, something pushes the trigger, etc. But, I'm reaching on this.
Assuming a series 80 system here.
Worse, for this redundancy that may have no real practical use to prevent an AD, many people are unable to fire the gun because of their grip. That's very common, from what I see, even more so when being active, drawing with less than a good grip, etc. And this is on "tuned" grip safeties.


Side note: In SVI's catalog, they list a thumb safety with an extra "pad" to block the hammer in addition to the sear. I don't know if that's what people are looking for, but it sounds good.

 

[1911Tuner]

.45Auto designer

You should be glad I don't design 1911's for a living.

I disagree! You had some good ideas, some of which were shared by John Browning.

On the grip safety...It may not be as useless as it seems at first glance. Somewhere on one of these forums there is a thread written by a guy who fell asleep in a recliner with his pistol on him. Sometime in the night, the safety got wiped off, and as he squirmed out of the chair, something pulled the trigger and fired the gun. He got a nasty burn on his backside and one leg, but nothing very serious. If I remember right, he had pinned the grip safety, and it wasn't able to block the trigger.

The plunger tubes won't come off easily if they are staked on properly... more modern, profit-based shortcuts...Front sight staking too. There's a right way and several other ways to do it. If you don't have the tool to stake one in, here's my method of doing it that hasn't failed to keep one in place yet. Get a new tube, and use a punch to lightly stake it in after you rough up the area where the tube lays as well as the backside of the tube itself. Degrease it well with brake cleaner and let dry for 5 minutes. Apply a dab of J&B Weld to the tube's legs and a light smear on the backside. Install the tube and wipe off any excess, and be especally careful to get it all off inside the frame. Clamp it lightly in a bench vise and leave it for 24 hours. Now...use the punch to lightly stake the insides of the legs at a steep enough angle that you don't knock the tube back off. I started this when I lost my staking tool, and didn't want to spend the money for another one. It works.

Now for the spring plug. You can look around at the gun shows and find one from time to time...and the price isn't bad. You may have to touch up the bluing, but they do work. Since I'm a toolmaker by trade, a fixture to
let a man make that cut in the plug wouldn't be hard to make. If I get off my lazy backside and make one, I'll be happy to fix up your plug and send it...No charge. Once the tooling is made, it would take maybe 30 seconds to modify one.

The linkless barrel AND the falling link design ride the slidestop into battery. That's the way it should work. When the barrel rides the link and is held in vertical lock BY the link is when things go wrong. The link's function is to unlock the barrel...not pivot it upward and lock it into the
slide. Most production guns' barrels do ride the link and stop just shy of
vertical lock, but they shouldn't. Many people who don't understand that will install a long link to lock it all up tighter, but in doing so, they've created the blueprint for damage to the barrel, link, link pin, and slide. When the link swings through its maximum arc, the bottom part of the hole unlocks the barrel. The front portion of the lower lug in a linkless design does exactly the same thing...it just doesn't move.

When all is right within the gun, the link comes under stress for a small fraction of a second when the barrel is at the end of its straight travel, and the link is swung through its arc and stops the straight-line barrel movement...and redirects it downward into unlock. After that, the link's job is over.

I completely agree that you shouldn't have to immediately replace the
magazine springs upon delivery. If the manufacturers stuck to the original design specs, it wouldn't necessary. Bean counters again. Really good springs are a bit more expensive to make than mediocre springs...maybe 25 cents more. Bean counters will stay awake nights to figure out how to save a penny per part...They win. If we could just convince them that we would gladly pay the difference per magazine to get GOOD magazines...but they don't seem to have that sort of logic in their makeup. It's all money. So we shell out 4 bucks to Wolff for good springs. It may be a conspiracy...Who knows? Wish I had a dime for each time that I've "fixed" a jam-o-matic with a Wolff magazine spring. Sometimes I don't tell the guy what I did and let him believe that I'm some kinda pistol genius. 5 bucks for parts and labor is a fair trade for performing black magic on his problem child and letting him draw his own conclusions...

When I get that plug tool worked out, I'll let ya know.

Keep yer powder dry!

Tuner

 

[45auto]

Tuner,
Thanks for the offer, advice and education. By the way, my plunger tube has been loose for about 20,000 rounds now. The grips hold it tight enough...apparently. JMB saw that one coming I'm sure.

 

[Henry Bowman]

Watch for the new version of the Spectre from Alchemy Arms. It is a 1911 frame mated with a single action striker (no hammer). Linear trigger pull mated to a linear striker with a simple, sure, and safe linkage in between. It's been a long time coming, but is in production and should be out there soon. Web site is primative at this time.

 

[1911Tuner]

Loose Plunger

The grips hold it tight enough...apparently. JMB saw that one coming I'm sure.

Right again. That's why the top of left side of the grip snugs up
to it. Seems to me you might oughta go into designing. Studying
a machine and determining the designer's intent is a knack that
only a few have. A logical thought process is a gift. Use it!

 

[1911Tuner]

Alchemy Arms

Watch for the new version of the Spectre from Alchemy Arms. It is a 1911 frame mated with a single action striker (no hammer). Linear trigger pull mated to a linear striker with a simple, sure, and safe linkage in between.

Now...THAT will be interesting! First thing I'd hafta do is break it down and
see how it works...Sorry. It's like a disease that I've had all my life.

Standin' by...
Tuner

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

Perfessor: those pistols are basically officers models in 9 and 40. What i want is a pistol with a shorter front to back dimension through the grip. those use the .45 frames.

 

[Kestrel]

Tuner,

Can you describe what hard-fitting a barrel entails? I've never read an adequate description of this.

Thanks,
Steve

 

[1911Tuner]

Barrel Fit

Sure Steve.

Gunsmith fit barrels come with all critical dimensions oversized to allow the
builder to fit the barrel to any reasonable frame and slide combo. There
are different levels of finish, or there used to be, depending on how
much fitting was desired or needed.

The bottom lug is fitted to cam upward on the slidestop pin to prevent
vertical play at the back, and still allow reliable return to battery. The
front of the lug is shaped to let the barrel unlock at the right time, which
is done by the link. Properly fit, the barrel should cam up on the pin to
a tight fit, and the lower lug should keep it locked until the barrel moves rearward about .100 inch. At that point, the forward radius of the lug
begins to fall off the pin, and the link starts unlocking thae barrel. Full
match fit keeps the barrel up a little longer...maybe .025 inch.

The barrel feet, too, should be fitted to just touch in their frame
abutment when the barrel is in bed...or laying in the saddle. Some
say that the bottom of the barrel shouldn't actually rest on the saddle, but have a thousandth of an inch clearance, being supported by the feet
in the frame, but I don't think it hurts anything to let it touch.

The lower lug's location in relation to the frame's impact surface is also
important, but too long to include here. I'll post a link about it if
anybody wants to see it. Simply put, if it's too far rearward, or the impact surface is too far forward, the locking lugs can be damaged. If too far
forward, or the impact surface is too far rearward, the link will be stretched, and can break, causing catastrophic damage to barrel and
slide.

The link must not support the barrel in lockup, and actually shouldn't
be so long as to let the barrel "ride" it as the forward radius cams over the
pin on the way to battery. Most production pistols do allow the barrel to
ride the link at that point, but ideally, the pin should lightly contact the
lug for the whole trip, getting tighter as the barrel approaches battery.
Note that the link does not hang dead vertical when the gun is in battery,
but overcenters about one-half degree. The supporting area on the
bottom of the lug isn't flat, but set at a slight angle to tighten the
barrel lug against the pin as it goes to battery.

The barrel hood is wider than spec to allow fitting into its area at the
back of the slide. This prevents barrel rotation from torque as the bullet takes the rifling...or holds it to a minimum. Everybody has his own idea
of how much clearance is allowable between the sides of the hood and the
slide. Some like it as tight as possible, some like about .002 per side.
I can live with more because I like plenty of room for dirt to go and not
tie up the gun.

The hood is also too long on some hard-fit barrels to allow the builder to
fit it precisely. This length is set from the rear of the hood to the locking
lugs, and these barrels usually require finish reaming to set headspace
after the fitting is done. These are true, hard-fit barrels that have a
lower lug that is semi-finished...much the same way that the old armorers
used to gt a tight fit by welding it up and recutting it. That method
makes the old builders appreciate the newer generation of fit-required barrels. MUCH less work.

The locking lugs too, are taller than spec on some barrels, and let the builder set the downward angle of the barrel axis correctly as he fits the
bottom lug. All this is to allow for worn or out-of spec slides and frames,
and is usually unnecessary when fitting a barrel to a new, quality slide/frame set.

Kart E-Z Fit barrels are semi hard fit, and have raised pads of metal between the locking lugs to let you remove a little at a time until
the barrel will cam up into battery.


The bushing is fit to allow minimal movement of the muzzle with the barrel in battery, and is fitted to be as tight in the slide as is reasonable and still allow removal. Some like it just beyond finger tight...some like to set them
tight enough to require a wrench to turn them. I like the former.

The bushing must be properly relieved to prevent the barrel from
springing up when pushed into the locking lug recesses in the slide.
The fit should be tight enough to hold movement to almost nil, and the
barrel shouldn't spring back up when pressed into the slide. Again,
technology and innovation makes it easier. EGW's angle-bored bushings
work, and if you let them know what your slide ID and Barrel OD is,
they'll make one that will fit and function almos perfectly, with just a little
lapping to the slide generally being all that's necessary.

If I think fo any more detail, I'll post again. Time to let the dogs out and make coffee!

Tuner

 

[BevrFevr]

I would make a 1911 more like a cz75.

reverse the frame and slide rails, linkless barrel etc, toss the grip safety, toss the bushing, etc.

Actually It would be easier to take the features I like on a 1911 and put them on a CZ. I love 1911 thumbsafeties. Scrap the DA trigger and use an nice sweet smooth 1911 trigger. Add a steel guide rod.

Actually the perfect .45 for me would be if a 1911 romanced a cz97 and they had a single stack baby it would be perfect.

Sorry for going out of bounds.

-bevr

 

[dsk]

The more you try to "product improve" the 1911, the more wailing and gnashing of teeth you'll hear from purists. In my opinion improving the 1911 reached its peak once makers began putting on useable sights and throated the feed ramp. All the other stuff is nice to have, but by no means necessary. The ability to go bang and to shoot where you aim it is all that matters.

The reason why Kimbers have sold so well is because their guns have all the desired features, with only a couple of useless extra ones. If only they could keep the QC up there wouldn't still be a market for a "better" 1911. I believe the whole reason why the SIG 1911 has generated so much excitement is because they are the first "new" 1911 manufacturer with a long history of impeccable quality control.

 

[1911Tuner]

Improvements

Dana, I couldn't agree more. The farther from original design that we get, the more we realize that the changes are not only mostly unnecessary, but
they often cause a whole new set of problems. So many people
have been trying to outsmart ol' John Moses for so many years, they
really think that they have.

Cheers!
Tuner

 

[mattjoe]

improvements?
I am just about done making all the improvements I could possibly want.
Began life as p14 limited.
Only thing I want to do now is replace the front sight with a fiberoptic, since the gunsmith forgot I was having one shipped to him, and he didn't install it. Now i've got a different size cut and can't just throw myfiber optic on there. Oh, and the front strap checkered, eventually i'll get bored with the grip tape, but it works fine.

Schuemann Bull Barrel Hybrid II with Accuracy Enchancing Technology, no barrel bushing of course, full length guide rod, Caspian slide, and para's have the grip screws directly into the frame as is, so no worry about bushings. Trigger all worked up, and grip safety pinned.


left side with it open, so you can see how the slide has been cut out to accomodate the barrel:

right side

 

[CWL]

I think the greatest improvement was already made when better sights were put on.

I kinda like external extractors, but I've never had any real extractor problems which couldn't be self-tensioned by me on my 3 m1911s.

Removal of grip safety? Might make sense.

 

[RON in PA]

Suprised that nobody has stated the obvious, the perfected 1911 exists, only it's not a .45, only a little 9x19 and its called a Hi-Power. Imagine a HP sized for the 45 ACP.

 

[Sean Smith]

Aside from the apalling trigger, short-bus magazine safety design, undersized thumb safeties, hammer bite, and so forth, yeah, the BHP is "perfected," all right.

Size the BHP design for .45 and you would probably ruin its virtues of ergonomics, pointability, ballance, and lack of bulk.

 

[Kestrel]

Dana - I agree. Sights and throating are really all a good 1911 needs. Everything else is just icing on the cake.

Tuner,
Thanks for the detailed info. I had been thinking about trying to learn how to fit a barrel myself, but after reading your notes, it seems like it's not for mortal man... Kinda discouraging.

Something I don't understand is, hwo some gunsmiths say they "hard-fit" barrels and most of the other gunsmiths don't mention anything about hard-fitting. How else are these other smiths fitting them? It seems like if the barrel requires certain parameters to fit right, it would have to be done. What am I missing?

I would really love to learn from someone how to build a complete 1911, including fitting the barrels correctly.

Thanks again for all your help,
Steve

 

[1911Tuner]

Barrel Fitting

Steve say:

Tuner,
Thanks for the detailed info. I had been thinking about trying to learn how to fit a barrel myself, but after reading your notes, it seems like it's not for mortal man... Kinda discouraging.

Don't be. It sounds more complicated than it really is. Get Kuhnhausen's
first shop manual and study the procedure. Then get a Kart-E-Z Fit
barrel and go slow. That exercise will teach you a lot. It's 10%
knowledge, 90% patience and common sense. The Kart won't
require finish reaming unless something on your pistol is seriously
out of spec, and ditto for the bottom lug. The hood is slightly long to
allow final fitting, and the bushing is already fitted to the barrel, and
all that's required is fit to the slide, and you can usually do that with some
lapping compound and a bushing wrench. Those Kart barrels are a
boon to the hobbyist who wants a near hard-fit, but can't justify the
expense of the equipment necessary for one or two pistols....AND...
they come with instructions. I've seen carefully worked E-Z Fits give
some amazing results.

Luck to ya!

Tuner

 

[BigG]

Suprised that nobody has stated the obvious, the perfected 1911 exists,

Ron, this exact sentiment has been expressed on every "improve the JMB 45 Auto" thread I have seen on TFL or THR, at least 5 or six. And it has been debunked on each thread also. Suffice it to say that JMB designed the HP for FN for a french contract competition which he lost. He could not infringe his own patents that he had previously assigned to Colt. By the time the GP made it into production, JMB was long dead and the pistol little resembled his striker fired hand built models.