20 Gauge: Tell me about it.

[Nolo]

Well, I'm looking at various defensive and offensive loads for shotguns in my never-ending firearms research, and I was wondering if the lessened recoil (and thus greater ability to follow-up) of the 20 Gauge is worth the (especially in 00 buck, which is what I am most interested in) decreased chance of a one-shot stop.
See, I'm considering the fact that, while 12 Gauge buckshot loads may have an enormous chance of stopping an attacker on the first hit, there's still that small chance that they won't (say, 5%). In looking at the rounds, I thought it might be better to have a less sharp recoil so that it is easier to get back on target quickly, as a trade-off to the greater stopping power, considering nothing will ever give you a 100% of stopping an attacker.
I also want you to consider that I am mostly looking at box fed shotguns, so I also think that the decreased width of the 20 Gauge would be advantageous. (I'm especially looking at a radical rimless 20 Gauge design, which would *gasp* open up the possibility of a double stack shotgun magazine.)
I just want you guys' thoughts on the matter.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Considering that the lowly 410 packs more ME than the 44 Maggie Numb, going to a 20 is not suicidal idiocy.

The kicker is ammo, though. 3 buck is not quite the stopper 00 is at distance. And no maker loads a 00 load in 20 gauge.

Every HD shotgun may have to serve as a Community Defense shotgun also. So, one wants ammo that can wreak havoc out there.

As for box fed, I think a 20 gauge Saiga stoked with the right slug or buck loads would be oneheckuva CQB tool. Forget a special rimless load.

Anything that we want to depend on in a crisis must be easily resupplied. Ask any owner of a 5 mm Remington......

 

[JNewell]

I love 20s, have half a dozen. I wouldn't choose one for defense, though, at least not as first choice.

Why? Can't get 00 buck loads. Can't get reduced recoil loads. Guns are lighter. Full power loads + lighter guns means recoil at the user's end is about the same as 12 gauge. You are better off, in my experience and judgment, going with a 12 and loading it with a more effective payload at reduced recoil charge levels.

 

[Nolo]

Considering everything you've said, I would just go with a 12.
However, the rimless idea is still very, very attractive to me, being that I might be able to go double stack, which would seriously rock in a, say, Saiga 12 with a 14.5 inch barrel.

 

[Nolo]

Also, can someone tell me what the diameter of the base of a 20 Gauge is? Not the rim, the base.
I want to see if removing the rim would be worth it.

 

[RandomMan]

My home defense gun is a 20-gauge Remington 870 Youth with a 21" barrel. #3 buck will do the job within 25 yards just about as well as 00. I really intend to swap to slugs (and keep them ready) if I need to engage a target farther out downrange.

For me and my girlfriend noticeable recoil is considerably different between the lighter 20 and the heavier 12, the 12 having considerably more recoil. The 20 fitted with a good pad is a breeze to shoot and doesn't kill your shoulder after a couple of boxes of ammunition. Follow up shots are quick (I am faster with it than my buddies with 12-gauge 870s) and I'm seriously thinking of maybe having this shotgun done up by Vang Comp for better accuracy.

-Rob

 

[TexAg]

On 20 slugs: what is the actual caliber of a rifled slug and the weight in grains? And FPS? ~1300?

 

[Nolo]

I imagine they're the same as the nominal 20G bore diameter: .615. But I do not know that for certain.

 

[Dave McCracken]

I've little experience with 20 gauge slugs other than the Rottweil Brenekke.

It works just like a 12 gauge slug. Blood trails are short and could be followed by Ray Charles.

I recall one that entered right behind the left shoulder broadside. It exited a rib or two further back, shredded both lungs and the deer made all of 50 yards at most and went down in sight.

Can't ask for much more.

 

[JNewell]

True, with slugs the difference at the target will depend more on slug design and things like that than gauge. We're talking .75 versus .67 caliber holes. The Ray Charles reference kinda sums it up...

 

[sniper5]

I recall reading once that a 12 ga with sabot slugs is ballistically equivalent to a 45/70 loaded with black powder. The 20 with sabots is similar to a 38/55 BP if that helps. This assumed using a rifled barrel for slugs.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Also, can someone tell me what the diameter of the base of a 20 Gauge is? Not the rim, the base.
I want to see if removing the rim would be worth it.

Ever think about working off the basic .50 BMG case, shortened to 2.75 or 3"? It's already rimless, all brass, and in wide supply.

lpl/nc

 

[Nolo]

Ever think about working off the basic .50 BMG case, shortened to 2.75 or 3"? It's already rimless, all brass, and in wide supply.

I think it's far too wide. And I want a mostly plastic case, only part brass (like a normal shell). Being so wide defeats to purpose of cutting off the rim (that is, to decrease diameter enough to the point that you might be able to double-stack the magazine).

 

[akodo]

Considering that the lowly 410 packs more ME than the 44 Maggie Numb, going to a 20 is not suicidal idiocy.

Over at the Box of Truth they were shooting the Taurus judge, and stated a factory listed velocity of 410 slug out of a standard shotgun barrel as 1,830, However, the slug weighed a measly 96 grains, which gives 728 Ft/lbs of muzzle energy, which is very comparable to the standard 44 mag load of a 240 grainer at 1180 to generate 740 ft/lbs

however, I am not sure how well that 98 grain slug will penetrate

Now, looking at a 20 guage slug. Federal "trueball" rifled slug. 2 3/4th uses a 3/4 oz projectile at 1600 fps for 1865 energy. NOTE, they have two different velocity opions for 12 guage 2 3/4ths, one at 1600 and one at 1300 reducde recoil type, and teh 20 guage slug has more energy than the 12 guage reduced recoil one.

20 gauge buckshot federal premium 3" has 18 pellets of 2 buck, for 1.2 oz at 1,170 velocity for 1609 ft/lbs of energy "en mass"
winchester superX buckshot with buffer 20 guage 2 3/4th inch shell with 3 buck 20 pellets = 1.1 oz payload at 1200 velocity = 1530 energy "en mass"

There doesn't seem to be much 20 guage buck in the "big" sizes, but then I have heard a lot of people saying 12 guage in 4 buck makes a lot of sense as a balance between pellet counts, penetration, lack of over penetration through walls, etc.

sure all of these smaller buckshots will bleed energy faster as it heads downrange, but I don't think anyone here is saying "i want buckshot for blasting a guy at 50 yards when he is syphoning gas out of my truck"

 

[Nolo]

sure all of these smaller buckshots will bleed energy faster as it heads downrange, but I don't think anyone here is saying "i want buckshot for blasting a guy at 50 yards when he is syphoning gas out of my truck"

Actually, I do want 50 yard range, as I'm mostly interested in military applications. I know a factory load like this doesn't exist, but I'm mostly interested in something like 00 or 0 shot in a 20 Gauge. I'm not really all that interested in slugs, mostly because I already knew they'd do fine.

 

[Chuck Dye]

The outside diameter of the .50BMG case at the extractor groove is 0.804, its length at the shoulder near enough 3", at the mouth 3.9" A 12 gauge bore is nominally 0.729. Blown out to a straight side wall, the .50BMG would come close to a 10 gauge (0.775). Now THAT would be a hall sweeper.

Would I want to practice enough with a light hi-cap 10 gauge 4 inch"? Probably not...

 

[ajax]

My HD gun is a Mossberg 500 in 20 gauge. Finding a good HD round in 20 isn't that hard. At close range just about anything coming out of the barrel will make you dead or wish you were. IMHO there is nothing better than a shotgun for CQ HD.

 

[Nolo]

The outside diameter of the .50BMG case at the extractor groove is 0.804, its length at the shoulder near enough 3", at the mouth 3.9" A 12 gauge bore is nominally 0.729. Blown out to a straight side wall, the .50BMG would come close to a 10 gauge (0.775). Now THAT would be a hall sweeper.

At the extractor groove? Why would you measure it there, a rebated rim doesn't do anything for me.
Not to mention that that totally defeats the purpose of using a 20 gauge.

 

[Dirty Bob]

When comparing 20ga. to 12ga buckshot, if you look at the same pellet size, they should be coming out of the barrel at similar muzzle velocities, but the 12ga will give you more pellets. IIRC, the 20ga. #3 buck shells I have hold 20 pellets of .25 caliber. That's nothing to sneeze at.

I can't speak to slugs, as I'm new to 20ga. and will be doing some testing this summer. I picked up a 20ga. looking for lighter recoil (in a gun that's similar in weight to a 12ga.) with slugs and buckshot.

Massad Ayoob wrote a recent article for Backwoods Home on moderate power firearms, including a comparison of 12 vs. 20 gauge. It can be found at: www.backwoodshome.com/ayoob_index.html

Regards,
Dirty Bob

 

[Nolo]

It seems the 20 is the best option for the basis of the autoloading shotgun.
However, I still cannot find any cartridge specifications on it (such as base diameter).
Can anyone help?

 

[machinisttx]

Lyman Shotshell reloading manual.....