.223 bolt action

[ArMa]

Ok, I have this friend that always preaches to me about how accurate and powerful his ruger m77 in 22-250 is, how he shoots to fish ducks at once and splatters em both, or how he turns squirrels into a fine red mist. Well after some time he got me thinking about buying a 22-250 so I started lookin around and then it dawned on me that his ammo is free, his dad reloads it for him. So I thought I would get something about the same if not equal, got to thinking and .223 came to mind, cheap, accurate, fast, makes jello out of squirrels, and can kill the lady Remington deer around here where I live. First I looked at CZ’s, and then at savages (accu-triggers are awesome), then came to realize that weatherby’s new vanguard came in .223, for about $480 that’s a great deal ‘specailly for a weatherby. I went to look at one and the dealer showed me a Remington 700 ADL synthetic, in .223 for about the same price, I then realized something, if I get one of these I’ll be waiting a bit until I can get a scope for it, well the Remington comes with iron sights so I can be shooting that day I get it, rather than waiting until I get my vx-II. So what do you guys (and gals) think? Pros, Cons? Any input whatsoever would be appreciated.

 

[dakotasin]

i like remington 700's, so your rifle choice is impeccable.
i think you'll find the rifle tons more enjoyable to shoot w/ a scope on it. even if you put a cheap scope on it to get it out of the store while you save for your leupold, that would likely be better than irons - and, it will help you to really appreciate the leupold once you pony up the cash for it.

as far as the chambering goes, i am not that big of a fan of the 223. i feel the 22-250 represents the ultimate in 22 centerfire. much more powerful than 222/223, and enjoys a much longer barrel life than 220 swift, 224 tth, or 22 howell. also, for your purposes, i would reccomend you at least consider a 243. it is capable of sending varmint weight bullets (55 or so grains) downrange in the 3500+ f/s range - no slouch - and is much better suited to deer than a 22.

one last point on the '223 is cheap to shoot mentality'. i have a very good friend who absolutely refuses to reload for his 223. says he can buy loaded ammo cheaper than what it would cost him to roll. my response is 'yes, but what is the price point to where the ammo is actually accurate?'

i don't have my notes handy, but i believe it costs me around $4.00 to load a box of accurate 223. the 22-250 is around $4.15. and to buy factory ammo, there is around a $1 difference between hornady's vx 223 and 22-250 - a dollar well spent for the great performance increase. (although i have not bought factory ammo for my 223 or 22-250 for years...)

just go get the gun and make yourself happy!

 

[Sleeping Dog]

The Remington (and others) may have a 1:12" twist barrel. That should stabilize bullets up to 55 grains, but no heavier. If that's the twist rate, it would be great for varmints, squirrels, where the bullet may weigh 35-45 grains. I'm not sure about deer, I think I'd want something a little heavier, at least 65 grains, but that takes a faster (1:9" or 1:8") rifling twist. Ask about the twist rate on all the rifles so you know the ammo limitations.

As far as the sighting system for the non-remingtons, if you can't buy the good scope now, then get a cheap fixed-power scope for the meantime. It'll shoot at least as good as iron sights, and the recoil of a .223 isn't likely to break it. But go ahead and get good sturdy rings.

Regards.

 

[Art Eatman]

I have a negative attitude about using any .22 centerfire on deer; there's too much chance of losing a wounded animal if the hit isn't "just right". A neck shot on smaller deer at relatively close range is okay, if you're not subject to nerves.

IMO, the difference between the .223 and the .22-250 is about 100 to 150 yards of effective range, when hunting--for instance--coyotes.

I have bolt actions in .223, .22-250 and .220 Swift. I'm prone to grab the .223 just on general principles, expecting shots inside 200 yards most of the time. They all shoot 1/2 MOA for three fairly-quick shots.

A lot of the less expensive scopes work just fine. Main thing is getting one with a good guarantee if you do have problems. I've used Weaver mounts and rings for over fifty years, so I'm sure they work--and they're cheap.

Art

 

[ArMa]

ok well I’m just about sure I want the Remington, the caliber is still undecided. You guys were putting the icing on the cake about the 22-250 then I was looking in my Cabela’s shooting magazine and saw NEW .223 ss109 NATO-spec ammo, 250 rounds for $62, and Remington remanufactured .223 FMJ’s for about the same price or for 10 bucks more you can get speer hollow points or speers TNT bullets. For $100/250 rounds you can get factory remanufactured nosler ballistic tip ammo. I saw the potential in that, I looked at 22-250s and you get new manufactured stuff for $130/250 rounds, so I‘m thinking that I should stick to the .223.

Then I come back to one of the major factors, yea I can shoot squirrel with it but I can do that with my 10/22, I still do not have a deer rifle. Someone told me I should get an ‘06 cuz you can get that fairly good Sellier and Bellot ‘06 ammo in 170 grain for like 8 bucks a box. Then if I was going to do some serious varmint hunting that my 10/22 couldn’t handle I could use those accelerator rounds. The reason im worried about this whole deer rifle thing is that these guys that own the gun store down the road want to take me on this big group hunt thingy in September, and I don’t necessarily want to show up with a .223.

Or I could look at it this way, I buy a new gun about every three months or so, maybe by the time I’m done with this .223 I’ll have enough time to buy a deer rifle. You’d be surprised, all the guys at the gun store you’d think would want to sell me a brand new deer rifle but the owner says bull**** all you need is one of our used model 70s or 700s in ’06 with a leupold for around 400 bucks. See any objections?

 

[Art Eatman]

"...used model 70s or 700s in ’06 with a leupold for around 400 bucks."

Sounds good to me; worth jumping on. Just check the bore, and make sure there are no dings in the crown of the muzzle. Remington triggers are easily adjusted for a crisp three-pound pull, and I guess Model 70s are the same.

Start reloading.

Accelerators are not noted for tight groups. I'd call them 100-yard coyote loads, but I wouldn't get my hopes up for 200-yard prairie dogs.

Art

 

[Leaky Waders]

If you're only gonna own one rifle...get a '3006 - it can do nearly everything in North America.

I own a browning abolt in .223 - it has a tasco world class 3-9 scope and rings on it...I probably need to upgrade that scope come to think of it to a leupold....although that scope has always done well on that setup. It also has a harris bipod.

I bought the rifle new thinking along the same lines as you...plenty of surplus ammo to shoot - too bad it shoots like sh$% with the surplus weights It would shoot 2 - 3 inch groups w/ surplus ammo depending how you held your tongue in your mouth; however, w/ winchester 45 grain jhp cxp1 I shot a 3/4 inch group at 118 yards w/ a little crosswind.

I'll post pic's of it after I eat...just got home from work and I'm starving...all in all I like this rifle alot! It's fun to shoot and very accurate...just be prepared to spend a little more than a few cents on ammo.

V/R,

LW

 

[Leaky Waders]

ok adding pics...I'm a novice at this

 

[dakotasin]

your post really re-iterates the point i was trying to make about buying a 223 based on price of surplus ammo... sure it will go bang, but the fun stops as soon as you realize you can't hit anything beyond 50 yards.

perhaps my reasons for owning 22's is different than others' ideas, but to me 22's have always meant precision... eg shooting a quarter at 200 yards (on purpose)...

 

[Leaky Waders]

Yeah I agree Dakotasin...I've had my rifle for 12-13 years now...it's fun and I can't shoot it as good as it could...I probably need to get more magnification on it...but it's killed more coke cans and stick and see targets than game.

I think the best plinking rifle is a .22 lr...the .223 is nice for small game. I wouldnt use it for tree'd animals like squirrels. I can't think of many times I'd shoot a high power rifle up into a tree. But, for calling coyotes or long range rabbits or varmints it would be good. I say long range..here the furthest shot you would get would be approximately 200 meters.

One advantage of .223 over 22-250 is the availability of ammo at smaller stores - like the mom and pop stores around here.

For surplus .223 it's hard to beat an AR clone...that's why I have a bushmaster...theoretically - it's my hog gun (that's how I justified it to my wife ). But it's really an expensive plinker with a louder bang than a .22 LR.

v/r,
LW

PS My group wasn't sand bagged...just my rifle resting on it's bipod on the hood of my truck. Other than the optics and bipod it's stock out of the box...pretty good I thought.

 

[ArMa]

about the AR clone, im in ...California :banghead:

I went to the gun club today and shot about 8 boxes of ammo, (trap) and talked to all the old timers (and some young'n's) about this subject and they all said that I can do anything with my 10/22 and an '06, so I should buy a Howa or Remington in 06 and synthetic. It was a hands down decision they all agreed on that same out come, they said .223s are ok but that remanufactured ammo is crap and 22-250 (according to the old timers) is 'unconventional and impractical'. Sorry to totally change my idea on the subject but I’m easily influenced, I was sold by about 15-20 guys saying the exact same thing about the synthetic 700 in 06 with a VX-II 3-9. so I guess this is the 'deer rifle' thread now, after all if I cant hit it with my 10/22 I can always get the critter with an 06, and I'm pretty sure I’ll get the same 'fine red mist' as with a .22-250

 

[dakotasin]

well, yeah...kinda.

the 30-06 is a versatile round and anything the 22-250 can kill, the 30-06 can kill just as well - and the 06 will handle a lot of things the 22-250 can't touch. the difference is, and here is why some people (like me) own a lot of rifles, the 22-250 doesn't have the recoil of the 06, and can be shot more with comfort - niche guns.

so, now the question goes back to you: how much of a gun crank are you? do you really get off on shooting and hunting, or is it just 'something to do'? if you see yourself owning a few more guns in the future, and you are going to hunt at least a little, then the choice becomes easier: get something bigger than the 22's this time, then next time get a 22.

as far as specific chamberings, i have no use for a 30-06, but must admit it is a powerful, versatile cartridge. my first choice for a deer-hunter and fun-shooter is a 7-08 - all the deer killing power you'll need, but without near the recoil of a 30-06... but, that's the fun of rifle shopping: so many calibers, and rifle brands and configurations within those brands...

 

[Art Eatman]

I've used an '06 since 1950. "Ol' Pet" is not my first '06, but it's been with me since 1970. However, since my legs ain't quite what they used to be, I've gone to a 700Ti in 7mm08. I just figure it's an '06 with a bit less range capability.

I call the .22-250 a world-class cartridge, ever since Jerry Gebby developed it in the 1930s. My uncle had a Gebby-barrelled "Varminter", that he built on a Mauser 98 action. He was getting five-shot, 3/4" groups back 50+ years ago. Then it became a factory round. Now, with all the development work on bullets, it's right at being a reasonable cartridge for deer. Not ideal, IMO, but usable.

There's just a mystical "something" about the Swift, though.

Art

 

[ArMa]

well I hunt, shoot, all that stuff and I am a recoil junkie it doesnt bother me any, I plan on buying 100's of guns in the future, im only 16... so yea an 06 now I will get something else in like september or november, but thats another thread. Im still thinking about the model 700 but then I read the 'My New Tikka T3' thread and was already looking into one of those a while ago so its another rifle in the running... thanks for the input everyone.

 

[Leaky Waders]

Back to the original post....I have one and like it...if you have more than two rifles (a .22 lr and a deer capable centerfire) then it's a fine choice...there are others out there that can do more further, but you can 'plink' at cans and stuff cheap w/ surplus for fun - not score...

As for how I pick a rifle....

1) Pick the caliber that you want. Look at the ballistics, think about the real use for your new gun. Think about the practicality of the ammo availability and whether or not you reload. One reason the 3006 is frequently recommended is the over the counter various loadings offered nation-wide...the other reason is because it's the best darn round ever made period

2) Pick the platform optics for your new caliber....think about how you would really use the caliber. Is this a squirrel gun for heavy cover requiring great light gathering ability or is this a paper puncher that will only see the underside of a well lighted tin roof. Or is this a caliber that you will only use w/ iron sites.

3) Pick the platform that will deliver your lead to the target...it may be limited by your choice of optics, caliber, or your desire for a strong action to reload or hunt in special situations. Bolt action, single shot, automatic, double rifle (drool), lever action etc...

In other words...many people start w/ buying the 'rifle'. But, you're not really committing to a rifle...you're committing to the caliber. The rifle is just the pretty trinket that delivers the caliber for you. It doesn't matter if it's a tikka, bar, weatherby, remington, winchester model 70 classic with walnut stocks and fine crisp trigger topped off with a vari x 3 leupold (arrgh I'm drooling again)... if it's not chambered in the right caliber for your use.

Anyways...that's how I do it.

Just my two cents,

LW

PS The 7mm 08 is a great round too. If you do a quick search or deer threads you'll prolly find a plethora of calibers that can knock bambi on it's tail. You'll also find people debating on which is the minimum caliber to use...select the best caliber first and you won't have to worry about head and neck only shots.

 

[ArMa]

ok im working on buying the 30-06 Remington 700 ADL synthetic right now. I might get more money than expected so I might upgrade to a BDLl. I was wondering if I could get really good custom heavy barrels for the model 700, or would it be better to get a BDL with the heavy barrel already on it?

also, someone told me that the leupold VX-I is just a VX-II not made at the leupold factory but by leupold specs and that if I was going to buy a VX-II to just save money and get an VX-I. Any input on that would be Appreciated

 

[dakotasin]

on the leupolds - that is incorrect. the vx-2 has more/different/better coatings than the vx-1. however, this does not mean a vx-1 is garbage, it is just not a vx-2. can't go wrong either way, but the money is better spent on the 2 if you can swing it.

custom barrels are readily available for the model 700, heavy or otherwise (for that matter, most other makes of rifles as well). might do a search at www.24hourcampfire.com for lothar-walther, pac-nor, krieger, shilen, hart, and douglas to see what is being said about the different barrels.

is there a specific feature of the bdl that interests you? or do you just not like the blind magazine? if you are going to immediately hang a heavy barrel on it, look seriously at the 700 vls. this is a laminated stock, 26" heavy barrel rifle and it features a hinged floorplate. this is probably the least expensive heavy barrel rifle that remington features, and it is very nice. again, check out the campfire to see what is being said about them (i love mine).

if you just want to build a custom rifle, start off w/ a 700 adl. this is probably the most cost-effective method of building a remington. after all, you just want the action. the rest goes on the auction block...

not trying to confuse you, but i think you need to narrow your focus a touch to be sure you get what you really want, and not just a bunch of compromises.

 

[ArMa]

Hey thanks for that campfire site, dakotasin, I browsed around that for a good while. It gave me a pretty good idea on what to do, im just going to start off with the 700 adl and later on when I get more money I will customize it, get a new stock, barrel, timney tirgger maybe, etc....

PS things might change depending on how much money I end up getting, I might get one of those sweet looking A-bolts (drool)