223 shoulder bump

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There is one thing that bugs me though. If sizing cases back to minimum SAAMI dimensions creates an unsafe condition (too much bump) then there should be a big neon warning message on the die box about that. Had I not have asked I could have gone on my merry way smashing every case back to minimum size. Regardless, I'll still do the paper clip check and watch for shiny rings at the base!
Excessive headspace between case and chamber will cause severe case sidewall stretching. This is undesirable and will lead to case head separations, such as evidenced by these 300 WSM cases. The shoulder was pushed back too much.

300WSMCaseHeadSeparation4.jpg

What happens with cases that are too short from base to shoulder is that on ignition, the thinnest parts of the case, that is the neck and shoulder expand first. They expand to the chamber walls and the friction between case and chamber is such that the case is locked into position. Since the case is shorter than the chamber there is clearance between the cartridge base and the bolt face. As pressures increase beyond the yield strength of the brass, the case sidewalls are stretched until the cartridge base makes contact with the bolt face.

An ersatz procedure to save your cases is to leave sizing lube on the cases. Any lubricant, including oil and grease will break the friction between case and chamber, which will allow the case to slide to the bolt face during the pressure rise and this will prevent side wall stretching. A light coat of lubricant is all that is needed, though Army and Navy machine cannon used grease.

Prior to WW2 a number of machine gun designs were made and the manufacturers did not have the manufacturing technology to maintain headspace for replacement barrels. There were also instances of tolerance stack up, due to errors between calibration systems, wherein the headspace of the ammunition and chamber was essentially uncontrolled. For these situations greased and oiled ammunition was used as recorded by Chinn in his Machine Gun series of books:


The Machine Gun Part V

Chapter 14 Birkigt Type 404 20-mm (Hispano-Suiza) Cannon

page 578--
After further comparative tests in late April 1942, it was again definitely decided by the Ordnance Department that all American-made 20-mm automatic guns continue to be made with the chambers longer by one-sixteenth inch than the British regardless of the employment of the same ammunition. This decision was final as far as American production was concerned, but in no way did it change the British representative's view on the longer chamber's performance.
Oddly enough, the question was again raised, not by the English or our many proving grounds, but by manufacturers of 20-mm ammunition. In testing their cartridges for reliability of action, they encountered a series of malfunctions known as light-struck primers that were all out of proportion for such a weapon. These were not isolated cases, the reports coming in from practically every maker of 20-mm ammunition that was engaged in function firing his products.

Since the munitions companies pointed out that the faint strikes were due to lack of impact on the primer resulting from error in the gun, and not as a result of defective materials or workmanship, it was decided to conduct another test on an extensive scale at Aberdeen. Ninety of the 20-mm guns, M1 and AN-M2, selected from every facility producing them, were expended in this test with all types of ammunition, both from accepted and rejected lots.
A complete record was made of every malfunction during the entire test and the probable causes of the trouble. The engineers in charge of the project in the early stages of this test recommended that two modifications should be made to overcome the serious malfunctions:
"(1) Shorten the chamber one-sixteenth inch, thus modifying it to approximately the British chamber.
"(2) Replace the extractor spring with a solid plug, thus positioning the rounds by means of the extractor. This change would include such modifications to the extractor, the bolt, and the ejector, as were deemed necessary."


page 588—

During war all that can be done is to install and make function as reliably as possible that which is issued. With the mounting of the 20-mm cannon in Navy, planes a series of malfunctions began that could not be properly corrected at the time because manufacture was at the peak of production. The slightest change would practically mean retooling. The most serious problem was the oversize chamber. There still remained considerable variance in dimensions between the chambers of the British and American cannon, even after the latter chamber was made one thirty-second inch shorter


Due to an outmoded agreement of long standing, everything above caliber .60 in the Army is considered artillery and the manufacture of the Hispano-Suiza cannon therefore came under this classification. In other words the production of this high-speed machine gun was done under artillery manufacturing tolerances. The resulting poor mating of parts, coupled with the inherent fault of all gas-operated weapons whereby the breech locking key in the receiver is immovable and the position of the gas port in the barrel is permanently fixed, made it impossible to adjust the relationship between barrel and breech lock to establish head space. Thus the most vital measurement in any automatic weapon was governed by chance in this instance.

An unfortunate discovery was that chamber errors in the gun could be corrected for the moment by covering the ammunition case with a heavy lubricant. If the chamber was oversize, it served as a fluid fit to make up the deficiency and, if unsafe head space existed that would result in case rupture if ammunition was fired dry, then the lubricant allowed the cartridge case to slip back at the start of pressure build up, to take up the slack between the breech lock and the breech lock key. Had this method of "quick fix" not been possible, the Navy would have long ago recognized the seriousness of the situation. In fact, this inexcusable method of correction was in use so long that it was becoming accepted as a satisfactory solution of a necessary nuisance.


The Oerlikon 20mm machine cannon was used on basically everything during WW2. It was the most common machine cannon made during WW2. It and its greased ammunition was used on American and British fighter aircraft, anti aircraft installations on ground and sea. PT boats had the things bolted to the deck.

ElcoPTBoatcropped_zps6eaf1786.jpg

The grease had to be applied by hand as the ammunition was linked. This was labor intensive and messy. You can see at exactly 2:14 on this WW2 video a Sailor’s hand painting grease on the 20 mm ammunition loading machine for the Oerlikon anti aircraft machine guns.

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=9dR3h2HdnBQ

After WW2 it was decided to get rid of the grease and the Oerlikons used through Vietnam by Patrol boats had oilers installed. There were numerous tests conducted which Teflon coated cases were tried, and chamber flutes, but the cheapest and simplest solution was to install oilers.
 
OP The die manufacturers make their dies to at least size the brass to MIN specs + (shorter) brass so the reloader will always have a case that fits. Simpler than them having a series of dies that you order by size and may not know how to measure for to get correct. If you follow the cam over directions they provide you will get a case that closely resembles a factory round that will work in ANY firearm. But for how many reloads before case head separation is always the question. The factory does not worry about you reloading that brass they only care that it fires one time so they make it to fit any chamber that is within spec.;) If you can control the total press/linkage flex as shown above coupled with a finite length of brass sizing every time you can control that case stretch much more closely and have longer case life. I would not throw away those cases you sized to min specs but instead reload them (or add a few more sized the same way so you have a good sized sample to reload together) and see what the case life difference is. You will have to keep them isolated from the rest though to do this. One sizing like this will not turn the brass into little bombs IMHO, but just shorten the case life a bit. Just use them in the bolt gun. You should always check your bottle necked brass for the internal rut every time as part of your brass inspection. I always do and have been safely reloading without case head separations for many years.YMMV

There are some firearms that are out of spec so far that one reload or even the first firing will cause a case head separation but this is not the norm.
 
There is one thing that bugs me though. If sizing cases back to minimum SAAMI dimensions creates an unsafe condition (too much bump) then there should be a big neon warning message on the die box about that.
Just because you screwed the die all the way down against the shell holder doesn't guarantee that you have sized it to minimum spec. It could be more or less. It's a sizing die, not a case gauge or a go/no go gauge, tolerances are not held that fine. Most of the time you'll be fine that way, but not always.

An inexpensive way to check shoulder position: (I do something similar)

http://www.ctstrimmer.com/case-gauges/21-case-gauge.html


Case gauges:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/456614/le-wilson-case-length-headspace-gauge-223-remington

http://www.sheridanengineering.com/index-1.htm
 
then there should be a big neon warning message on the die box about that.

lol , yea there's really to many things in reloading that should have a big neon warning message . There are dangers lurking around every corner .
 
In a test of reloads per .308 Win case, used a Federal brass one with 42 grains of IMR4895 under Sierra 165 SBT's with a Fed. 210 primer; typical max load.

RCBS full length sizing die with its neck lapped out to .002" less than loaded round neck diameter and set to bump fired case shoulders back .002".

Had to trim it back to 2.000" every 8 or 9 shots as it had grown to 2.100" by then. Each firing shortened the case about .002" then grew .003" after sizing; about .001" growth each cycle.

Never annealed the neck.

Muzzle velocity stayed at about +/- 15 fps over all rounds fired.

Ran out of test powder after 47 reloads.
 
http://riflebarrels.com/a-look-at-bolt-lug-strength/

What happens with cases that are too short from base to shoulder is that on ignition, the thinnest parts of the case, that is the neck and shoulder expand first. They expand to the chamber walls and the friction between case and chamber is such that the case is locked into position. Since the case is shorter than the chamber there is clearance between the cartridge base and the bolt face. As pressures increase beyond the yield strength of the brass, the case sidewalls are stretched until the cartridge base makes contact with the bolt face.

An ersatz procedure to save your cases is to leave sizing lube on the cases. Any lubricant, including oil and grease will break the friction between case and chamber, which will allow the case to slide to the bolt face during the pressure rise and this will prevent side wall stretching. A light coat of lubricant is all that is needed, though Army and Navy machine cannon used grease.

They used grease because they had problems getting their guns to run without it. And then there is the sequence of events, your descriptions sounds great until factors are considered. I do not believe you have a clue how fast thing happen when the trigger is pulled. And then there is Bart B., he claims the case, powder and bullet take off for the front of the chamber when the firing pin strikes the primer.

And then there is me; I have shoulders on cases that do not move when fired. I have one chamber that is .016" longer from the shoulder to the bolt face than the case from the shoulder of the case head. Meaning the chamber is .002" longer than a field length gage and the case is minimum length. Again, when I fire a new case in that chamber the shoulder does not move.

And I have fired 8mm57 ammo in an 8mm06 chamber with killer firing pins. My firing pins crushed the primers before the case had time to move; and again, the shoulder of the case did not move.

F. Guffey
 
How have you determined SAAMI (1.464") minimum with your Hornady comparator? Unless you calibrate you Hornady gauge with a "GO" 1.464" gauge, you are just guessing.
Flight, the comparator is measuring 1.448" on my resized cases. Way under spec right? So I pull out two different brands of factory 223 and measure those. They read 1.447 - 1.449. I rezero'd the calipers and got the same reading again.



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O/P, you're NOT going to get a SAAMI equivalent number from your Hornady gauge. Your gauge is a comparator, not a SAAMI spec go gauge. My .330" Hornady insert measures 1.455" with a 1.464" Go gauge. So, when I get a reading of 1.455", that is the same as 1.464" SAAMI minimum. All of the Hornady gauge inserts have a chamfer on the edge of the insert. On my .330" insert, I have a .009" chamfer. Chamfers can vary up to .020".

You need to measure your fired cases from your rifle and then set your die to bump the shoulder back -.005". The only way for you to get a SAAMI minimum 1.464" reference is to take a 1.464" Go gauge and measure it in your .330" insert and note down the reading.

Now, you wrote you measured two new factory loaded cases and you got measurements of 1.447"-1.449". Those will be near SAAMI minimum, but realize that factory ammo can be .002"-.003" + or - from SAAMI minimum. I would just guess your F/L resized cases @ 1.448" is going to be very near the SAAMI minimum. You should be good from there @ 1.448" for a F/L sized case.

What is the measurement from fired cases in your rifle? When using a comparator gauge like the Hornady, you go off of your fired cases form your rifle.

I will take a guess and say your fired cases will probably measure 1.453"-55"?

Is this starting to make sense?
 
You need to measure your fired cases from your rifle and then set your die to bump the shoulder back -.005"?

I think that's .003" too much. So do people getting best accuracy from that and similar size bottleneck cases headspacing on their shoulders. This is the first time I've seen that much bump back put in print, so it's off the grid of what seems to work best from my standpoint. It's also in the range of bump back that shortens case life.

SAAMI case headspace spec for the .223 Rem is 1.4656" -.0070" which makes minimum 1.4586". Chamber headspace max spec is 1.4736". Most FL die's headspace with standard shell holder height of .125" is typically about .005" less than SAAMI chamber minimum or GO gauge spec. Yes, die's have headspace, too; measured from bottom of shell holder where case head rests to datum diameter on the die's shoulder.
 
The only way you are going to know if your Hornady Case Gauge is being honest with you would be as Flight762 and others have stressed. That would be to setup the gauge and then measure an actual headspace gauge. A Forster Headspace Go Gauge 223 Remington will run you about $30 and will serve as an accurate reference standard.

While I prefer the RCBS Precision Mic gauges I also have a Hornady set and the problem is exactly as Flight762 has mentioned as well as others.
All of the Hornady gauge inserts have a chamfer on the edge of the insert. On my .330" insert, I have a .009" chamfer. Chamfers can vary up to .020".

Before I retired I dragged my Hornady bushings to work and had my machinist guys face my bushings off, they work much better now.

LNL%201.png

Here is a case fired from my bolt gun:
LNL%204.png

Here is the same case after running through a RCBS full length sizing die. The die was run down just enough to snugly touch the shell holder in the extended ram.
LNL%205.png

You can still use the case gauges less having a chamber head space gauge. Measure a fired case and look to bump it back a few thousandths. Remember the gauge measures variations in your brass before and after firing or resizing. Measure a fired case and adjust your sizing die to simply set the shoulder back a few thousandths. Make sure your resized cases chamber in your rifle. Again, if you want actual true real world numbers you need to use a known chamber head space gauge as a reference with your gauges. Doesn't really matter, Go/NoGo/ or Field as long as you have a good known number. Looking at Hornady's instructions they never mention the gauge giving you accurate true numbers. They merely mention as was covered a comparison.

Ron
 
O/P, you're NOT going to get a SAAMI equivalent number from your Hornady gauge. Your gauge is a comparator, not a SAAMI spec go gauge.
Yep, it is just an arbitrary number, unless of course you do what Reloadron did. (Very smart Ron)

I use a little home made button to get numbers, but they are just arbitrary numbers. I must measure fired and sized cases to see how much shoulder movement I am getting. I guess I could do like Ron and machine them to give me numbers like his, but between my little button and my case gauge, I know what I am doing to my brass in relationship to my chamber (button) and whether it is within spec or not. (Gauge)

I have had good luck with moving the shoulder an average .003+ for autos, or just sizing to fit the middle of the gauge, and moving the shoulder an average .002+ for a bolt gun. Too tight in the chamber is no good, so I don't want to cut it too close.

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If my datum? has a chamfered edge/radius I us it as a comparator. If there is no bevel/chamfered edge/radius at the top of my datums I zero my gage and then measure from the datum to the case head.

There are a few methods/techniques a reloader can do to improve accuracy. And then there is L.E. Wilson case gages; they use a datum with a radius, they have been doing it for just over 62 years +/- a few months.

L.E. Wilson zeros the gage with the radius on their datum.

F. Guffey
 
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It finally makes sense now. The comparator produces an arbitrary number used for measuring the before and after firing delta. And I'll have to measure a real Go gauge with the comparator to find the offset value. Whew... Anyway I fired a few of my test loads yesterday and saw +.004 shoulder expansion. Once my competition shell holders arrive I'll bump back at least .002 depending on the gun. You guys have been very helpful. Glad I asked.

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It finally makes sense now. The comparator produces an arbitrary number used for measuring the before and after firing delta. And I'll have to measure a real Go gauge with the comparator to find the offset value. Whew... Anyway I fired a few of my test loads yesterday and saw +.004 shoulder expansion. Once my competition shell holders arrive I'll bump back at least .002 depending on the gun. You guys have been very helpful. Glad I asked.

Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk
I do believe you got it! :)

Ron
 
Bump

I use a Dillon or Wilson case gauge to set up my resizing dies for calibers in which I own or load for several guns. I figure I am not oversizing and also should be good for any new gun I buy
 
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