.243 - 250/3000 Savage - .257 Roberts

[Shawnee]

One of those pieces of rifle lore that gets repeated enough to turn into "knowledge" is that the .250 Savage (aka .250/3000) and the .257 Roberts (aka "QuarterBob") were sent to the Fuddy-Duddy Heap by the new (in 1955) Winchester Hotrock Golly-GeeWhiz caliber - namely the .243 Winchester.

A few of my very closest friends are aware of my modest fondness for the .243 Winchester. But that fondness notwithstanding, I gotta say that the demise of the .250 Savage and the QuarterBob was not, could not , be due simply to the .243 arriving on the scene like Secretariat at the '73 Belmont (25 lengths ahead of the field). A basic comparison of the three calibers can show that....

For comparison's sake let's use the common 100-grain bullets in both calibers, and do the comparison to 400yds.

.243 SP BC = .376 SD = .242
.257 SP BC = .357 SD = .216 (used for both the .250 Sabage and the QuarterBob)

The "advantage" held by the .243 so far amounts to nothing at hunting ranges.

To shorten this epistle I'll just point out that the .243 leads the .257 Roberts in ft/lbs of energy BUT - from 100yds. on, it is never by more than a measley 35 ft./lbs. (and usually less than 25ft./lbs.)
The .243 also is moving faster than the QuarterBob. BUT - from 100yds. on, it is never by more than 45 fps (and usually 30fps or less).
Using 200 "zeros", the .243 also has less drop than the QuarterBob. BUT - at 300yds. the difference is only 1/10 of an inch and at 400yds. the difference is only 6/10 of an inch. In practical terms - out to at least 400yds the difference would be blotted out by the thickness of your crosshairs.

The point here is that the .257 Roberts and the .243 Winchester are virtual "twins" until about the 350-yd bouy and then the .243 manages a very forgettable "advantage".

But what about that pipsqueak the .250 Savage ??

Well, with good handloads, it launches the 100-grainer just 100fps slower than the .257 Roberts. While it starts out 200fps. behind the .243, that has dropped to only 75fps. slower at about 150yds. and stays that way out to about 350yds and then falls to 120fps. behind at 400yds.
Almost exactly the same news in the energy dept. At about 125yds. the .250 Savage is about 75-80ft/lbs behind the .243 and stays that way to about 350yds. and then is about 110ft/lbs behind at 400yds.
But what about the drop stats? At 300yds. the .250 Savage has fallen 8/10 of an inch more than the .243. At 400yds. it has fallen 1 and 9/10 of an inch farther than the .243.

The fortunes of the .250 Savage and .257 Roberts may have plummetted in the mid-50s - but it had to be due to Marketing ("perceived performance"), the Howler Monkeys at the gun-zines, rifle host decisions and probably some other things - but it was NOT due to the (real) performance of the .243 Winchester being head and shoulders above the bar. Frankly, at any reasonable, ethical hunting range, these three (and the 6mm Remington), are THE deer calibers, non pareil. And there isn't a nickel's difference between them.

 

[matrem]

+1
And,IMO add to that , the fact the rifle companies already had a lot of .250 Savages & .257 Roberts out there.Why not go along with it and sell a whole bunch of "hot" new .24s ?

 

[alsaqr]

The .257 Roberts was not wildly popular in the 50s. The Winchester model 70, the Remington model 30, the Remington model 722, the Remington model 760 and a few much less popular rifles were chambered for .257 but they were not seen that often in the deer woods.

Because that waning popularity, gun companies gradually dropped the .257 Roberts chambering. Part of that lack of popularity had to do with a dearth of good .25 caliber bullets in the 50s. Basically, you had a choice between an 87 grain and a 117 grain. Along came a 120 grain spitzer bullet, but the rifling in some guns would not stabilize that bullet. When the .243 came out there was little need for the .257 Roberts in the deer woods.

The .250/3000 not all that popular in the deer woods compared to the .35 Remington and the .30/30. Had a friend who hunted with a Savage model 99in .250/3000. He let more horribly wounded deer get away from his 87 grain bullets than he took home. The .250/3000 suffered from the lack of good bullets.

 

[DRYHUMOR]

The Bob

Sometimes ya just gotta go classic.

Seems like when something new comes through marketing, gun mags, and ammo mfrs; something else becomes obsolete. After enough time it is re discovered.

Then it's a classic. Then someone wants to make new guns, different ammo, and it's back in the gun mags. I seen to recall a header in a gun mag- this may not be exact- "Can Kimber save the .257 Roberts?"

I never knew it was in danger of dying. I think there are 6 or 7 bullet weights in .25, readily available. If you wanted to get a special twist, all it takes is a little bit of money, and a good smith.

I would be curious if there is any research on the twist rate required for the 120 grain.

 

[MCgunner]

Funny you should post this as I just bought 50 rounds of .257 Roberts brass and dusted off the old Pacific dies. I have 50 rounds loaded up and plan a range trip for sight in as I was going to try a scope swap, but the scope I wanted on it requires taller rings. I might go buy some rings and mount 'em and the scope, I haven't decided. I don't care for the Bushnell that's on it all that much. The scope I was going to put on it is one of those lighted reticule scopes that I bought cheap. I put it on a SKS and it's held up well and it's a clearer scope than that Bushnell. But, heck, I don't know, the Bushnell is rugged, doesn't fog and I haven't tested that cheap scope in cold. I really need to buy something decent, I guess.

Anyway, I handload 51.0 grains (compressed load) of H4831 behind a Sierra 100 grain Game King which is a boat tail bullet and has a BC of .3something. This load is flat shooting and blows the .243 away and, in fact, splits the difference between .243 and .25-06. This is in a short action Remington M722 with 24" barrel. Even though I say "blows the .243 away", inside 300 yards it ain't gonna kill a deer any deader than a .243, so what's the practical difference? The difference is all on paper. I can push a slightly heavier 117 grain bullet to 3050 fps, handy on heavier game, perhaps, but it's still light for anything bigger than deer/hogs.

I think what killed BOTH .25s is that factory stuff was loaded so anemic when the .243 came out (SAAMI standard pressure only 45,000CUP, a joke in modern bolt guns), and, of course, the new caliber hype that always comes with a new cartridge and the fact that the .243 is based on an AMERICAN military case probably didn't hurt. It does work a little better in true short actions, too, I suppose, though so will the .250 Savage. The .257 case is a little longish for a really short action, but the 722 Remington is a handy little rifle.

Anyway, I got no use for a .25-06 OR a .243 since I have had this .257 since my grandpa gave it to me when I was in highschool. I have a couple other rifles I really like, but I've been thinkin' of breaking out ol' reliable lately for some action and I've got my reloading stuff organized finally so I can crank out some rounds.

BTW, if I'm not mistaken, the Remington is a 1:10 twist and it does moa or less with 100 and 117 grain stuff. I've not really played with 87 grain stuff. I think anything I'd wanna shoot with an 87 grain bullet, I can do with a 100 grain bullet, frankly.

 

[MCgunner]

Wow, weird, but the above post isn't showing to have been made on the main page. Wondering if this post will wake it up?

edit, now it's working. Weird.

 

[moosehunt]

Uh, maybeso I'm missing something, but what's your point MCgunner? I think everyone pretty well knows what you said, and I don't think you'll get much disagreement.

 

[Shawnee]

Dryhumor...

I'm pretty certain 1:10 is accepted as optimum to do a great job with the 120-grainers and I think that is what the Ruger .257s and .25/06s are made with.

I don't know about 1:12

The original .250/3000 rifles were at 1:14 and supposedly did a poor job with the 117-grainers and 120-grainers.

 

[DRYHUMOR]

Shawnee,

Yeah, I know the 1:10 is standard. I think about things sometimes though. There are different twist rates for other calibers, with good results. I would be curious if maybe a .25 or .50 difference in twist, with todays powders may be an improvement or not.

 

[MCgunner]

Uh, maybeso I'm missing something, but what's your point MCgunner? I think everyone pretty well knows what you said, and I don't think you'll get much disagreement.

Forget second post, was having problems with this site showing my post. I posted that to test, because when I'd click on this thread, it showed up. Weird anomoly.

I was re-reading an article I've saved over the years from an "American Hunter", 1987 issue, where I got the 51.0 H4831/100 gr load. In it, the author was shooting a 722 remington handed down by his grandmother, interesting. Anyway, he says that gun always shot 1.5 MOA or so with 117 grain bullets, but stepping 'em up over 3000 fps, they shot 1 MOA. I had the same experience. Faster bullet, faster spin? I don't know, but it was interesting. The 100 grain bullet is still the most accurate, giving 1/2 to 3/4 in 100 yard groups, but hey, 1 MOA for the 117 grain load is plenty accurate, more than accurate enough, for deer hunting. Hell, 1.5 MOA is accurate enough for deer hunting, but I have this thing about 1 MOA. LOL

I don't shoot the 87 grain stuff and when I have played with 'em, they weren't as accuate as the 100 grainers. I think 1:10 is pretty optimum for the caliber just based on my gun and this experience, myself. Backing off the loads a might could make the 87 grain bullet more accurate, but I just don't see the need in this bullet weight, frankly.

 

[Art Eatman]

They named it ".250-3000", right? The idea was to compete with the Roberts. But, with the factory loadings of the era, to get the 3,000 ft/sec, they had to use the 87-grain bullet. Advantage, Roberts. What handloaders can do is pretty much a whole different game, particularly with today's powders--which work a bunch better than HiVel #2.

Look: What stands out about America is the set of attitudes: Bigger is better. More is better. Faster is better. Cars, houses, bullets--you name it.

Like the song says, "Faster horses, older whiskey, younger women, more money..."

 

[smokemaker]

"Well, with good handloads, it launches the 100-grainer just 100fps slower than the .257 Roberts"

I can get 3122 fps with 100 grain speer hot-cors and 46 grains of H-4350 out of my Bob 722. The best my father's .250 model 99 will do with 100's is 2835 fps. (Don't know what charge weight, but he's using 4895) Yes, the 722 has 2 more inches of barrel, but thats not 300 fps worth. What handload gets a .250 savage to 3000 fps with a 100 grain bullet?

 

[MCgunner]

Well, Art, I have had a couple of Toyota trucks, never owned a 1 ton. Maybe I'm just un-American. Right now I have a Chevy 3/4 ton conversion van, but that's because trying to sleep in a Toyota truck just plain sucks.

 

[frogomatic]

some of the .243's popularity is owed to it's parent cartridge, the .308. With the 308 having been adopted by the military, brass from the parent case was more readily available, less costly, and easy enough to resize to .243

This same case could be presented for the .257 roberts (based on the 7x57 mauser), however, most of the military 7x57 ammunition was berdan primed and more difficult to reload.

The 250/3000 savage is a unique case that cannot be easily formed from any existing military cartridge.

I'm certain there are many other factors as well, but the parent cartridge was most certainly one of them.

 

[MCgunner]

Well, it's easier to just reload the .308 than to neck it down. LOL

My 7mm TCU contender barrel is based on .223/5.56 brass. It never quite took off in popularity. ROFL! I don't think anyone even makes brass for it. I've found that necking commercial brass is much easier than trying to neck up military stuff. The military stuff is tough and you crack and mess up a lot of cases. The commercial stuff is thinner and more malleable and works a lot better, with very few failures. I don't know about necking .243s from .308, but I like military 7.62 brass for loading .308, much tougher brass and lasts longer and cheaper to boot. One thing, too, sometimes when necking thick brass down to much smaller calibers, the neck wil need to be reamed/thinned.

I really don't think the brass thing for .243 has much to do with popularity. Hell, most hunters don't even reload. I bet out of 100 hunters/shooters in my county, and this is Texas, home of the firearm, you'd be lucky to get 2 or 3 that reload.

 

[Shawnee]

You're right about the availability of .308 brass being a totally irrelevant issue, McGunner. That's just more hallowed apple sauce from the 1956 edition of the .30 cal. Worshipers' Hymnal.

And you're also right about the scarcity of hunters/shooters who reload.
Though a relatively high percentage of people who frequent boards like THR do reload, the % of the general population that reloads is a tiny fraction of 1 percent.

 

[GooseGestapo]

MCgunner;
I used to think pretty much along with you, but recently obtaining a Ruger M77MKII, I've changed my mind a bit.

My Ruger won't take anything near the 51.0gr of H4831 that my custom M98 with an ERShaw barrel. It will take the 51.0 of H4831, and actually prefers 49.0gr of H4831 with a 117. Though, my best groups have been with 48.5gr of H4831- 0.66", at 200yds !! Not bad for a 7.5lb rifle with 5rds of ammo, AND a Leupold 2-7X VariX-II scope.

But, don't even think of trying that with the Ruger. The oft quoted max of 48.0gr+/- w/100gr bullets strictly applies with this rifle. It has a very short throat. The 2.8250" loads are as long as will chamber. My custom will take 3.10" oals with most non "tipped" bullets. And shoots better to boot.

However, I don't feel "rained on", because just 38.0gr of IMR3031 or 40.0gr of BL-C2 will get me 3,100fps with the 100gr bullet. (OK, instrumental velocities at 15' run 3,060-3,080, but correct to 3,100fps MV)

FWIW, my "handloads" from my custom M98 EXCEED those from my friends MK-X mauser w/factory 24" bbl, and my M98 has a 22" bbl. But a more fair comparison is the Ruger w/22" bbl is only about 75-90fps slower than his .25/06. His favorite load of IMR4320 yeilds 2,900fps but 1/2" groups with a Sierra 120gr BTHP. Stellar performance on Whitetails, to boot!

As regards "on game" performance, the Roberts/.25/06 exceed the .24's by a fair margin. The only time I've suffered bullet failure with the .25's has been when the bullet hits something before hitting the deer. (My .257Wby excepted, with Nosler BallisticTips). But, at 3,350fps, I think they're going a tad faster than Nosler intended........(24" bbl, not 26").

But, the "light" loading of the "Bob" in factory ammo, and the slow twist of the .250 Savage were valid "complaints". But, ultimately it WAS the PR/Marketing that "hurt" the .25's. Not actual/percieved performance in the field.

 

[moosehunt]

I agree that the .243 from .308 brass thing was a non-factor (though it's relatively easy to do). Also, it might be noted that .250-3000 brass is also easy to form from .308 if one chooses that instead of locating factory brass.

You made a comment that is surprising to me--about reloaders. I may be all wet, but I was under the impression that hardly anyone bought factory ammo--that most people reload. It's that way around my country. I'd say 75% of shooters reload here. Then again, maybeso I don't associate with many "normal" people.

 

[MCgunner]

I'd say 75% of shooters reload here. Then again, maybeso I don't associate with many "normal" people.

ROFL! Yeah, I think that has warped your perspective. LOL Reloaders are by far the exception around here. But, now, go to a gun club meeting and nearly EVERYone reloads. Of course they do, they shoot a lot. LOL

Goose, I wonder if the BLR has such a short throat? When it was available in .257 Roberts in the 80s, I thought a lot about it. My bud has a .308 BLR and it's a very short action, but they have a long action version that they even chamber belted magnums in. Not sure the action length on the BLR in .257. The Remington has no problem with my compressed H4831 loads. I pump the 117 hornady up to 50.0 H4831, too, and get 1 MOA. But, whatever gives the best groups is what I'd go with in any given gun, for sure. A few FPS don't mean much to a deer.

I went and sighted the .257 today, fired a couple of 3 shot 1/2" groups at 100 yards. It's still the performer. I'd forgotten how light it recoils being as I've been messing with my .308/M7 Remington for a while now. Nice not to get pelted so bad when the gun goes off. LOL

 

[GooseGestapo]

YES! MCgunner;
The BLR indeed has the short throat!
I tried loading some "BOB's" for a friends BLR back about 15yrs ago. I loaded the Sierra 117 BTSP's as he'd been using that in the Federal factory Premium factory ammo. He had to give them back to me to reseat them as they wouldn't chamber as originally seated.

I had to "borrow" a factory load to set seating depth to fit his gun. They were seated to the "industry" standard spec. of 2.725". I didn't get to check his gun but, I suspect that I could have perhaps seated them out to about 2.775" and still chambered them.

From what I've read, the Winchester's have a slightly longer throat. This is based on an outstanding article that Rick Jamison did back in the mid-80's comparing the Remington M700 Classic with a Win. M70 FW. However, the Winny still had a substantially shorter throat than did a custom chamber. My rifle's chamber was cut by ER Shaw in the early '80's. I don't know if they still use the "3inch" chamber like they used to.

 

[Art Eatman]

McG, I'm up to some 296,000 miles on my '85 Toy 4WD PU. Xtra Cab, so sleeping in the bed is a bit snuggly, but it works. Go most anywhere, camp when I get there.

But the '00 full-size Jimmy is more comforbubble to drive across I-10.

 

[MCgunner]

Interesting, Goose, thanks for that. I did the smoking the bullet with a candle thing to find out OAL for my loads and haven't actually measured one. I have a primerless dummy like I do for all my loads to set he seating die with. But, 51 grains of H4831 nearly fills the case and I tap it down a bit before seating. It's compressed, but it seats. I am less enamored with the BLR in .257 now, though, LOL.

Art, my 4x4 Toy was an 82. That thing was bad to the bone as a hunting truck, like a big oversized ATV. It had the solid front axle everyone now days wants. It was still running like a Swiss watch at 180,000 miles, but down here, it was turning to rust so bad, I just couldn't deal with it anymore. LOL That's something you don't have to put up with out there. I do miss that thing, a lot. Now, I have a dirt bike if it's wet.

I took a road once up in the Guadalupes in SE New Mexico that was on the USGS map. It was a little over 4 miles long and took us 7 hours to get down it. Had to get out of the truck and find the road at several points. We got back to that store in Queens and told the guy that ran the store about it. He nearly passed out. "You went down THAT road!? It's been closed as impassable for two years!" I can understand why they closed it, LOL! At points, I would back into position to get where I could go forward watching so as not to drop a wheel of a ledge. I would look back in the mirror as I was driving over boulders the size of bowling balls and I'd see our gun cases 3 feet off the bed, then WHAM! I had to sight both guns in when we got back to camp after that one. They were WAY off. LOL!

Anyway, when I got back into racing motorcycles and running across country to the different tracks, I got this van. It gets 14 mpg with bikes on a trailer and all my gear and I don't need a motel when I get there. And, when I pass someone on a two lane, it actually accelerates when I stomp it. When I was driving that old Toyota, I could run about 70-75 with a full load IF I didn't have much headwind and I got 17 mpg and had to spend money on motels or sleep in the dirt because the 6 ft bed was full of motorcycles, tools, race gas, riding gear, etc. Sure was nice coming back from out of state just to pull into a roadside park and nap at 2AM to 6, not even have to get out of the van, just lock the doors and put the pistol in a handy place just in case. If I had my choice, now, I'd sell the Van and keep the Toyota even though the van only has 87K on it, but it's not rusty. That Toyota was so bad, mud would fly up through the holes in the floorboard and hit me in the glasses. ROFL! I was beginning to wonder how long the seat was going to be there before it fell through. It was one bad to the bone off roader, though. And, for gas mileage, I have motorcycles and my wife has a Toyota Echo, so when gas is 4 bucks a gallon, the van sits with a battery tender. ROFL!

Okay, back on topic, now, sorry.

 

[tmoniz]

I took a lot of deer with the Bob. I loved shooting it so much I shot the barrel out. I hunted with a guide that took all of his elk with the 257.
I don't think the 250 or the Bob is quite dead yet.
Don't think they ever will be.

Tmoniz