25 ACP bullet seating problems?

[David4516]

I tried to bring an old thread back from the dead but apparently THR won't let me. Grrr...

Anyway I had a thread dating back to 2003 called "25, worth the trouble?" where I asked about loading for this manstopper round. Got some good info and decided to try it. Was successful too, and posted my results.

Fast forward about 8 years...

Last night I tried loading .25ACP again for the first time in several years. I've moved twice since 2008 and only just recently got around to un-packing my reloading stuff and getting set up.

I've also just started using a turret press (Lee classic 4-hole). I bought this:

http://store.gun-guides.com/The-Perfect-Handgun-Adapter-for-LEE-Perfect-Powder-Measures_p_41.html

It's been working well so far. Loaded up some .38s and some 9X18 Mak recently. So I thought, "OK, let’s move on to .25, got to feed the Beretta and the wife’s 1908 vest pocket pistol".

However, I can't figure out how the heck I got this to work before. I have some 50gr bullets and some 35gr bullets. If I load the 50's my powder measure doesn't like the small charge, but the bullets seat fine. If I load the 35's, the measure works fine with the slightly larger powder charge, but I'm having issues seating the bullets.

The 35s, when I seat them to the correct depth, will "spin" inside the case. I can't pull them out of the case or push them into the case, but I can rotate them with very little effort. This makes me nervous. I'm also finding that if I'm not VERY careful, the seating die has a tendency to "squish" the mouth on the hollow points. If all this wasn't enough, many of these are coming out looking crooked. Like the bullet is seating at a slight angle or something.

I don't recall having these issues with the 35gr bullets when I last loaded them, but like I said it's been a while. Has anybody else had any of these issues, and if so, how did you get around the problem(s)?

 

[David4516]

Here is the link for the original thread by the way:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=50921&highlight=acp

 

[rcmodel]

I would guess your seating stem does not match the shape of the 35 grain HP.

So, they either get deformed, or seated crooked.

And that is causing the loose bullets.

I think if you can match a seater stem to the bullet, your problem will go away.

BTW: If I was trying to load .35 ACP, I would weigh every charge.
You simply can't trust a powder measure when 0.02 grain is the difference between a good load and an overload!

Those little vest pocket guns have no margin for error and excess pressure will beat them to an early grave.

rc

 

[David4516]

This is the die set that I've got:

http://leeprecision.com/3-die-carbide-25acp.html

Only mine came in the round box, not the flat box. Not that it makes any difference...

Anyway, does Lee make different seaters? I'm looking around on their website but I don't see anything. I maybe am looking in the wrong place?

I wonder if I could have something custom made? My only concern with that would be cost. I don't think you can buy the .25 cal XTP as a component anymore. I know you can buy it as loaded ammo still but I haven't seen the bullets by themselves for sale anywhere recently. I have a stockpile from a few years ago left over, approx 600 of them. I'd like to be able to use them but on the other hand, if I have to custom-order parts for bullets that I can't buy I don't know if it's going to be worth it.

Regarding the powder measure, I've been double-checking the charges my Lee PPM is throwing with a digital scale. It's consistent if the charges are 1.5gr or higher (fine for 35gr loads) but it is NOT consistent with smaller charges (1.1 to 1.3 grains for the 50gr loads). I did load some 50gr bullets using the "dipper" that came with the dies. I don't know if I like this method though, as I had to weigh each one anyway.

I don't want to blow up my wife’s pistol. She's got a vest pocket pistol that was (according to the SN#s) manufactured sometime during WWI (late 19-teens). It was passed down to her from her grandmother. This is a range gun only, not a carry gun. I think it needs some new springs too, as the hammer strikes seem a little light. On the other hand, my wife and I each have our own Beretta 950 Jetfire pistols, and we do carry them from time to time. I don't carry my reloads with them, just factory loads (sometimes Hornady XTPs, other times Winchester FMJs).

My reloads are just for practice and/or plinking. My only goals for them are as follows:

1: Be as easy as possible to reload (relatively speaking, no .25 is "easy" compared with other calibers)

2: Doesn't need to be a hot load, but does need to have enough oomph to cycle the action consistently

3: Needs to be safe (don't want to damage the guns, or lose any fingers either)

 

[rcmodel]

Lee might make you a custom seating stem.

But as you noted, Hornady has discontinued all .25 ACP bullets, so what you got is what you got. Probably not worth getting a custom stem.


You can convert the seating stem you have with JB Weld.

Coat a loaded round with wax or grease, then put a plug of JB Weld in the stem and run the round up in it until it cures.

Once you get all the bullets used up, you can dig the JB Weld out and be back where you started.

rc

 

[steve4102]

I load for the 25 and I have the same die set. I am not having the same issues you describe.

I load mostly 50gr bullets and they all have the same profile, so I'm not convinced it is your seater stem unless it is the wrong one or it is defective or it's installed incorrectly.

IMHO, your spinning bullet is caused by to much crimp. Are you seating and crimping in the same step? Doing this with the die set to deep can cause the case to budge slightly in the neck causing a loose bullet. Then the over crimp keeps the bullet from moving in and out.

Back the die out of the press until your crimp is just enough to remove the flare. Then readjust your seating stem for proper OAL.

What powder are you using? I have a Harrell's Precision pistol powder measure that is very accurate with extremely small charges. Even with that, most powders do not measure well down to 1.5gr. I have found only one powder that meters well for this little guy and that is AA #2.

Check the seating stem and make sure it is the correct on and installed correctly.
Adjust the seating die so not to over crimp.
Get yourself some AA#2.

 

[David4516]

"Are you seating and crimping in the same step?"

Yup.

It's possible that I am over-crimping, will try this again later tonight with a lighter crimp and see if that does the trick.

I'd like to crimp as a seperate step using a Lee "factory crimping die", as I've got the 4-hole turret. That batch of 38 specials I just loaded up were done using this method and it worked great. However I've never seen a Lee FCD in .25 caliber. Do they make one?

Regarding powders, I've been using mostly bullseye (it's been my go-to powder for pistols) but also tried a few with 700-X. I have a little Red Dot lying around too, but have not tried this yet. I don't have any AA powders. I wouldn't mind trying AA#2 but it seems like all the stores in my area only sell IMR, Alliant, and Hogdon powders...

After I get this 25 ACP thing figured out (IF I can figure it out), my next challege will be 9mm Largo. Going to see if I can load it with 9x19 dies and will probably use 38 ACP (not 38 super) load data...

 

[Certaindeaf]

You are over flaring. Don't do that.

 

[steve4102]

Regarding powders, I've been using mostly bullseye (it's been my go-to powder for pistols) but also tried a few with 700-X. I have a little Red Dot lying around too, but have not tried this yet. I don't have any AA powders. I wouldn't mind trying AA#2 but it seems like all the stores in my area only sell IMR, Alliant, and Hogdon powders...

That tiny little case Requires a very fine ball /spherical powder if you are going to "Throw" the charge. None of the powders you listed fit that bill. They will most certainly work, but you Must weigh each charge for safety as they will Not meter down to 1-1.5gr.

 

[Hondo 60]

Contact Lee, they will get you the right seater stem.

I'd also dbl check the thickness of the 35 gr bullet.
If the bullet is undersized that may be why it will spin.

Otherwise rcmodel is correct - the wrong stem is pushing the bullet in crooked & expanding the case mouth so you're not getting the tension you need.

 

[kingmt]

I've used round stems for flat nose bullets without problem. I would rule out your setup before looking at tooling. It sounds like your over crimping.

Try to seat without crimping take it out & inspect. Then try to crimp without your seater touching.

 

[David4516]

Did some loading earlier this evening and had better luck this time. I used a little less flare, and a little less crimp. This helped alot.

I loaded up approx 75 rounds, only had 2 "spinners" and maybe 3 or 4 crooked bullets. Zero hollow points were "squished". So about 70 of my 75 come out perfect. Will continue to experiment but I think I'm on the right track.

Any idea why Hornady stopped selling the 35gr XTP as a reloading component? I'm going to run out of these things after a while and if I can't get more I'll be forced to go back to the 50gr FMJ.

I'm OK with using the 50gr bullet (prefer it in fact due to lower cost) except for the problem with getting my powder measure to throw the even smaller charges. If I can find some AA#2 I'll give this a try, maybe it will solve my measure problem?

I decided to load some 9mm Largo after I was done with the .25s, and that was much more fun. I normally enjoy reloading and consider it more relaxing than working, but with the .25 it does feel kinda like work...

 

[David4516]

Having more seating issues... yay...

Attemping to attach a photo, hope I'm doing it right...

Anyway, I am not a bullet caster but my Dad is, and he decided to make some boolits for me for the .25 ACP

Ordered one of these molds. Lee TL257-50-RF Six Cavity

After sizing them to .251 diameter and loading up about a dozen for testing, I discovered that they wouldn't fully chamber when seated to the published COAL (0.890 to 0.900). If I seat them deeper they will chamber. The attached picture is 3 bullets, one FMJ seated to 0.890, and lead bullet seated to the same COAL, and then one more lead one with the bullet seated deep enough to chamber (just barely). I'd probably need to get slightly deeper still to get them to be reliable.

My question is this: does seating these boolits deeper make them unsafe? I assume that deep seating a bullet will increase pressures.

While this mold said it was for .25 ACP on the Lee site, I almost wonder if it was actually designed for something like .25-20? It seems like a really flat/blunt shape for a semi-auto pistol. I'm wondering if I'll even be able to use it at all.

However, if it really is the correct mold for the .25, I'm assuming that these were meant to be seated deep into the case. I say this becaue of the location of the lube grooves. I'm under the impression that the lube is supposed to be totally inside the case when using cast bullets? If this is the case, seating this bullet to published COAL means that the lube is outside the case. So you'd HAVE to deep seat it, right?

I guess I'm just a noob when it comes to lead bullets in semi-auto pistols. Any advice would be helpful.

On a different note, I discovered that Red-Dot meters better from my powder measure than Bullseye. I loaded some rounds using 1.1gr of Red-Dot and 50gr FMJs, this combo seemed to work OK. Took my Jetfire to the range this weekend, fired about 20 rounds with no issues. I would have shot more (had about 50 loaded rounds with me) but I couldn't find any of my brass (too many .22LR cases on the ground, and with my eyesight they all look the same).

 

[Certaindeaf]

Dang.. he got a six gang for that? Sounds like a cool Dad. That bullet looks like what I'd like coming out of a .25acp..
Personally, I'd be tempted to throat the barrel a bit, barring that, they must be seated so they chamber.. as long as they feed also. Try some dummies of course.
Seated that deep, yes, they will increase pressure quite a bit. I'd load some quite light (like two rounds) and increase by .1 grains 'til enough power were gotten to cycle reliably.
good luck and keep us informed.
Oh, and bring a brass dowel/rod and hammer to the range with you.

 

[David4516]

Yeah my Dad is awesome. We used to do all our reloading together in his garage. Great father/son time and all. But that was back when we both lived in OR. Fast forward a few years, and now I live in WA and he lives in MN. We shared alot of equipment before (most of it stuff that he's gathered over many years, some from before I was born), but now that he's moved and taken his stuff with him, I find myself having to buy my own gear. I've got a pretty good collection of my own going now, but am still missing a couple things (biggest thing is a case trimmer).

Anyway, he still makes cast bullets for me from time to time, and sends them to me via those "flat rate" shipping boxes from the USPS. I have about 500 of these cast .25's and I'm hoping I can put them to good use.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I hear you. Looking closer at the pic, you might be over-crimping. Just want to take away the bell and that's all. Also, see that lead ring at the mouth? You don't want that. You might try doing seating separately from "crimping". Barring that, use your thumbnail to remove that.

 

[gamestalker]

Give the following a try and then let me know what happened.
Take resized case and put a slight bevel on the inside of the mouth, don't bell the mouth at all. Then with your seating die backed out to the point it doesn't any contact the case mouth or produce any crimp at all, seat a bullet in the case. See if it will still spin in the mouth.

Since you are using lead bullets, the bevel may need to be more pronounced to prevent shaving. If this produces normal neck tension, then you don't have your crimp die properly adjusted.
GS

 

[David4516]

I hear you. Looking closer at the pic, you might be over-crimping. Just want to take away the bell and that's all. Also, see that lead ring at the mouth? You don't want that. You might try doing seating separately from "crimping". Barring that, use your thumbnail to remove that.

I noticed that lead at the case mouth too. The pic of the FMJ round was of a round that I had loaded a while ago back, before I started this thread. It's over-crimped for sure. The 2 lead bullets have less crimp but I think it's still more than I need. Will reduce crimp even more with the next batch I load up.

gamestalker,

I think the "spinning" bullet issue has been resolved, I've had much better results now by using a little less flaring/bell and a little less crimping. I still need to fine-tune more to get it just right, but I believe I'm on the right path.

 

[steve4102]

I discovered that they wouldn't fully chamber when seated to the published COAL (0.890 to 0.900).

OAL is not manual specific it is firearm specific. Find the OAL the fits, feeds and fires in YOUR firearm. Then and only then can you "Start Low and Work Up". After all, if it doesn't fit and fire there is reason to worry about pressure, is there.