Lately ive been looking at my custom MRC 1999 in .30-06 and have a itch to make the move to .30 Gibbs. It has a standard bolt face obviously and Id like to stick to non magnum calibers...that said. My gunsmith did some action work recently to smooth the bolts travel down the action as it sounded rough and was specifically told to leave the lugs alone. My chamber is(or was) minimum SAAMI spec, he lapped the lugs and moved it right out to max according to my forster gauge set. For my upcoming trip to NW Ontario Ive fireformed and neck/body sized some brass and come up with a sweet load using H414, I leave friday and accomlished this yesterday. I considering having another gunsmith that does all my machining(and probably all my work now) set the barrel back a 1/4 turn and ream it out to .30 Gibbs this winter.... try something interesting I guess. The barrel currently has 550 rds of '06 through it and is stainless( 25 1/4"). Midway carries "quality cartridge co" brass but forming brass would be cool too. Any thought's on this odd ball caliber and especially experiences if you have them?
.30 Gibbs
- Thread starter Visionz45
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If you want to, go for it. However, the rifle loses resell value unless you find someone who wants a .30 Gibbs.
I don't see where you will gain anything ballistically over the .30-06 that would make the cost worthwhile. However, this is something that you need to justify to yourself.
I don't see where you will gain anything ballistically over the .30-06 that would make the cost worthwhile. However, this is something that you need to justify to yourself.
Visionz45:
Well, I have a book that tells about the ".30 Gibbs" as well as the other calibers he designed from the 30-06 base brass. I personally like the .338 Gibbs because of the BC and bullet weights available, but that is my thing.
If you don't have "Gibbs' Cartridges and Front Ignition Loading Technology" by Roger Stowers, published by Wolf Publishing in 1991 (ISBN: 0-935632-99-9) you should invest in a copy.
The one note that I have highlighted in my copy states "In the literature that was sold with his chambering jobs Gibbs wrote that, "pressure indications may be as subtle as a cratered primer." and "the secret to safe handloads is good case life and primer pocket fit." That advice should be regarded as gospel and maximum handloads approached with caution."
Else where in the book is a picture of a case and a piece of wire with a loop on one end and a bend on the other for checking the inside of the cases for head separation after fire forming. "Gibbs' case forming load was 50 grains of IMR 4895 behind a 180 grain bullet that was seated far enough out to engage the rifling so resistance is felt when closing the bolt. If factory loads are used, the bullets should be pulled and seated out to engage the rifling."
I have formed many cases from 30-06 base brass and used a few hundred pounds of cream of wheat and loads of Unique to get the cases to fill the chamber and then completed the fire forming with a solid load and bullet to get the final product, out of all I have done this way, only a couple of case separations were experienced.
Hope this helps, have a great time with a magnum like cartridge from the past. I did happen to shoot one many years ago, it was just like shooting any other rifle, but at the same time, it seemed to be a better 30-06.
BE SAFE! Have fun and let us know how it goes.
Ray
Well, I have a book that tells about the ".30 Gibbs" as well as the other calibers he designed from the 30-06 base brass. I personally like the .338 Gibbs because of the BC and bullet weights available, but that is my thing.
If you don't have "Gibbs' Cartridges and Front Ignition Loading Technology" by Roger Stowers, published by Wolf Publishing in 1991 (ISBN: 0-935632-99-9) you should invest in a copy.
The one note that I have highlighted in my copy states "In the literature that was sold with his chambering jobs Gibbs wrote that, "pressure indications may be as subtle as a cratered primer." and "the secret to safe handloads is good case life and primer pocket fit." That advice should be regarded as gospel and maximum handloads approached with caution."
Else where in the book is a picture of a case and a piece of wire with a loop on one end and a bend on the other for checking the inside of the cases for head separation after fire forming. "Gibbs' case forming load was 50 grains of IMR 4895 behind a 180 grain bullet that was seated far enough out to engage the rifling so resistance is felt when closing the bolt. If factory loads are used, the bullets should be pulled and seated out to engage the rifling."
I have formed many cases from 30-06 base brass and used a few hundred pounds of cream of wheat and loads of Unique to get the cases to fill the chamber and then completed the fire forming with a solid load and bullet to get the final product, out of all I have done this way, only a couple of case separations were experienced.
Hope this helps, have a great time with a magnum like cartridge from the past. I did happen to shoot one many years ago, it was just like shooting any other rifle, but at the same time, it seemed to be a better 30-06.
BE SAFE! Have fun and let us know how it goes.
Ray
ranger335v
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- Dec 3, 2006
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- 3,797
IF you just want an oddity to play with, the .30 Gibbs is good as it get on the -06 case but how ever you load it, it's no .300 mag. I doubt you would see any meaningful difference in the field.
Rocky Gibbs claimed (and maybe got) some impressive speeds but he did it at the cost of some very high chamber pressures I wouldn't play with. The case looks cool but hardly worth the cost for most of us, that's why it faded and died so long ago.
Rocky Gibbs claimed (and maybe got) some impressive speeds but he did it at the cost of some very high chamber pressures I wouldn't play with. The case looks cool but hardly worth the cost for most of us, that's why it faded and died so long ago.
ranger335v:
I do agree, it is not a .300 Win. Mag., it doesn't have a belt or hold as much powder, but it does have some impressive velocity compared to a -06.
I read in some publication that Gibbs velocities were actually the highest he had gotten with a specific load and were not the average that we use.
Even if you use the load data that Gibbs says he used, the velocities are quite a bit less. I had a friend who re chambered an old Savage into a 30 Gibbs some years back, when the primers showed pressure he backed the charge down some amount and lived with it. The velocity was still a couple hundred fps over what he had been getting with the -06 he started with. it also burned more powder. Case life didn't seem to be very good, but with -06 cases being plentiful he didn't really care.
These are somewhat like the Ackley Improved, lots of hype just to get something that burns more powder and decreases case life, but the Ackley's were very popular when I was in my 20's and 30's. All of these wildcats have just about gone the way of the other old cartridges in the name of more velocity and energy.
Ray
I do agree, it is not a .300 Win. Mag., it doesn't have a belt or hold as much powder, but it does have some impressive velocity compared to a -06.
I read in some publication that Gibbs velocities were actually the highest he had gotten with a specific load and were not the average that we use.
Even if you use the load data that Gibbs says he used, the velocities are quite a bit less. I had a friend who re chambered an old Savage into a 30 Gibbs some years back, when the primers showed pressure he backed the charge down some amount and lived with it. The velocity was still a couple hundred fps over what he had been getting with the -06 he started with. it also burned more powder. Case life didn't seem to be very good, but with -06 cases being plentiful he didn't really care.
These are somewhat like the Ackley Improved, lots of hype just to get something that burns more powder and decreases case life, but the Ackley's were very popular when I was in my 20's and 30's. All of these wildcats have just about gone the way of the other old cartridges in the name of more velocity and energy.
Ray
I at the point now that I own a .30-06 Model 70, I built the current rifle in .30-06 only because I had planned on giving my model 70 to my nephew who has since then decided that hunting/shooting isn't his thing. I push a nice load of RL-22/180 Accubond's in the 22" M70 w/Boss and am happy with it. I will use my .338 WM if I need extra horsepower. I measure my barrel for throat and muzzle errosion and it gauges almost new( I'm easy on it), this .30 Gibbs seems like a cool way to push a 180 or 200 to the spot where I want them and not have to go through the pain of having my bolt face opened up. I'm also a .264WM fan so odd ball rounds kinda get my fancy. I would like to fireform so early 50's LC and DEN brass by seating the bullets into the land but that could be a seperate topic. Thanks as always gentlemen.
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loadedround
Member
The 30 Gibbs is as obsolete today as your grandpa's red flannel long johns. The Gibbs burns out barrels, uses excessive amounts of powder to gain 100 to 150 fps more than a standard 30-06. Did I mention the noise...? Why not just rechamber your rifle to a 300 WM and have a modern caliber and not a 30 or 40 year old wildcat.
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Nevmavrick
Member
The .30 Gibbs is no more obsolete than the '06 itself. It's not a "barrel-burner" if you don't insist on using 4895. I don't use 4895 in anything but Garands, anyway. If I were to load '06s, again, I'd probably use 4350, or something similar, therefor, I'd do the same for a Gibbs.
Matter of fact, since I got rid of my .264 WinMag, not my idea, I've decided to get a .270 Gibbs.
Since I've not fired a factory round, except .22lr, for 30 years, I believe that a wildcat is no different. I load them all to minimum specs, for the chamber.
I DO agree about one thing, though....I wouldn't take a factory barrel and rechamber it, unless I got quite a deal on the gun. If I'm building a gun from the ground up, or re-doing an abused gun, I'd put a barrel on that I wanted. The resale on a wildcat, or even an "improved" sucks, so get what you want, and use it.
Wearing a rifle out faster is hard, especially if you talk about hunting accuracy, and not benchrest. A hunting rifle will last 3 or 4 generations, while a wildcat, loaded hot, will only last, maybe, 3. In other words...your grandson, will probably give it to someone.
The .30 Gibbs will do anything the .300 H&H will, and the .300 SHOULD have a 26" barrel. The Gibbs will do as well with a 22", be easier to carry, and kick less. Accuracy is built into the rifle, not the cartridge. Over 180gr, the .300 has an advantage, and I'm NOT going to get into a fistfight over 100-150fps, as I've seen THAT much difference between two barrels of the same cartridge. In answer to an unasked question....I carry a .300 WinMag, with a non-standard chamber.
MOST of my ammo is sent over a chronograph.
Have fun,
Gene
Matter of fact, since I got rid of my .264 WinMag, not my idea, I've decided to get a .270 Gibbs.
Since I've not fired a factory round, except .22lr, for 30 years, I believe that a wildcat is no different. I load them all to minimum specs, for the chamber.
I DO agree about one thing, though....I wouldn't take a factory barrel and rechamber it, unless I got quite a deal on the gun. If I'm building a gun from the ground up, or re-doing an abused gun, I'd put a barrel on that I wanted. The resale on a wildcat, or even an "improved" sucks, so get what you want, and use it.
Wearing a rifle out faster is hard, especially if you talk about hunting accuracy, and not benchrest. A hunting rifle will last 3 or 4 generations, while a wildcat, loaded hot, will only last, maybe, 3. In other words...your grandson, will probably give it to someone.
The .30 Gibbs will do anything the .300 H&H will, and the .300 SHOULD have a 26" barrel. The Gibbs will do as well with a 22", be easier to carry, and kick less. Accuracy is built into the rifle, not the cartridge. Over 180gr, the .300 has an advantage, and I'm NOT going to get into a fistfight over 100-150fps, as I've seen THAT much difference between two barrels of the same cartridge. In answer to an unasked question....I carry a .300 WinMag, with a non-standard chamber.
MOST of my ammo is sent over a chronograph.
Have fun,
Gene
loadedround
Member
Nevmaverick: I don't understand your one comment about loading your cases(re 30 Gibbs) to minimum specifications. If so why bother with a hot wildcat or magnum cartridge and load it down. Again I don't wish to get in a cat fight with anyone, but that makes as much sense as putting a 4 cylinder engine in a Corvette and not driving over 25 mph. BTW, I don't use 4895 in my Corvette either.
Fred in Boise
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- Sep 6, 2010
- Messages
- 5
I'm thinking of rechambering my M70 '06 to Ack Imp to get extended case life and 2800fps with 180 grn and RL 22 in WW cases. Have 22" bbl.
After reading this thread am now thinking about the Gibbs. Anyone have any idea on what velocity talking about in 22" bbl?
How does it differ from the 30 Hawk?
Fireforming ACK Imp brass is easy--have exp with 280imp and 250sav Imp. Still, I wonder about the Gibbs where you're blowing the shoulder out forward.
After reading this thread am now thinking about the Gibbs. Anyone have any idea on what velocity talking about in 22" bbl?
How does it differ from the 30 Hawk?
Fireforming ACK Imp brass is easy--have exp with 280imp and 250sav Imp. Still, I wonder about the Gibbs where you're blowing the shoulder out forward.
NCsmitty
Member
Hopefully your rifle isn't a pre-64 M70, and even if it isn't, your gain in muzzle velocity with the Ackley, would be negligible with a 22" barrel. The only good part of that conversion would be the slightly better case life.
The Gibbs would definitely like at least a 26" barrel, but it's your call.
Fireforming the Gibbs is accomplished by placing a false shoulder on the neck in the right place by necking up the case neck to perhaps 8mm (.323), then sizing it to .308 so the false shoulder holds the case in the Gibbs chamber for fireforming.
Like I said, IMO, the chance of gaining anything in a 22" barrel with either conversion would hardly be worth it.
The regular 30'06, utilizing some of the new powders now available, is a formidable round on it's own.
The Hawk rounds are similar to the Gibbs.
NCsmitty
The Gibbs would definitely like at least a 26" barrel, but it's your call.
Fireforming the Gibbs is accomplished by placing a false shoulder on the neck in the right place by necking up the case neck to perhaps 8mm (.323), then sizing it to .308 so the false shoulder holds the case in the Gibbs chamber for fireforming.
Like I said, IMO, the chance of gaining anything in a 22" barrel with either conversion would hardly be worth it.
The regular 30'06, utilizing some of the new powders now available, is a formidable round on it's own.
The Hawk rounds are similar to the Gibbs.
NCsmitty
GooseGestapo
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- Jan 6, 2003
- Messages
- 6,153
NCSmitty almost nailed it.....
The advantage of the .30Gibbs is pretty much lost these days. It is cheaper to go to the local pawn shop and git a .300WSM or such.
Brass is available, dies are cheap, and resale value of the fiream is unaffected by a lack of "geneology" on the repairs/modifications. Also, you can't shoot factory .30/06 in the .30Gibbs due to headspace issues. A set of "Gibbs" dies is going to set you back over $100...... I know, as I've got a .30Herrett barrel I don't shoot.... The dies will cost more than I paid for the NUF barrel.....!
Secondly, with the likes of H4350, RL17, IMR4007, and especially RL22, the need to increase the "combustion" chamber of the '06 is largely negated.It is well documented that the 5-9% increase in case capacity will only net you about a 2-3% increase in velocity. However, with a full case of RL22, my Savage M110LH with a 22" bbl will get 2,800fps with a 180gr bullet. No need to ream/ruin the barrel. (I had a Ruger #3 once. I bought it used and didn't know someone had reamed the barrel to .22K-Hornet, and botched the job.....) You'll never know till you've already spent the money....... A pound of powder is cheaper !!!!
I get 2,800fps from a 180gr bullet from my all my '06's, and that's plenty, thank-you! The Colt Lt.Rifle w/24" bbl will approach 2,900fps with 61.0gr of RL22.... I've seen some factory .300WinMag ammo that didn't break 2,900fps fwiw.
For $225.00 back in '05, I got a Savage M110 in .300RUM. For an additional $120, I got a set of dies,100+cases, and 16lbs of WC-860 powder. (it came with scope bases, and I already had a scope/rings to put on it). With the WC-860 (surplus .50BMG powder, identical to Hod H870), I easily get 3,300fps from a 180gr bullet....... And it will shoot factory ammo, too.
Why I did it, I'm not exactly sure.....
It's not like I NEEDED that much velocity. The regular '06 will do the same job with less noise, recoil,and gun weight. "cheaper" it isn't as the 16lbs of powder cost $50....... So it's actually "Cheaper" to shoot the .300RUM... Go figure! (bullets cost the same either way.....)
The advantage of the .30Gibbs is pretty much lost these days. It is cheaper to go to the local pawn shop and git a .300WSM or such.
Brass is available, dies are cheap, and resale value of the fiream is unaffected by a lack of "geneology" on the repairs/modifications. Also, you can't shoot factory .30/06 in the .30Gibbs due to headspace issues. A set of "Gibbs" dies is going to set you back over $100...... I know, as I've got a .30Herrett barrel I don't shoot.... The dies will cost more than I paid for the NUF barrel.....!
Secondly, with the likes of H4350, RL17, IMR4007, and especially RL22, the need to increase the "combustion" chamber of the '06 is largely negated.It is well documented that the 5-9% increase in case capacity will only net you about a 2-3% increase in velocity. However, with a full case of RL22, my Savage M110LH with a 22" bbl will get 2,800fps with a 180gr bullet. No need to ream/ruin the barrel. (I had a Ruger #3 once. I bought it used and didn't know someone had reamed the barrel to .22K-Hornet, and botched the job.....) You'll never know till you've already spent the money....... A pound of powder is cheaper !!!!
I get 2,800fps from a 180gr bullet from my all my '06's, and that's plenty, thank-you! The Colt Lt.Rifle w/24" bbl will approach 2,900fps with 61.0gr of RL22.... I've seen some factory .300WinMag ammo that didn't break 2,900fps fwiw.
For $225.00 back in '05, I got a Savage M110 in .300RUM. For an additional $120, I got a set of dies,100+cases, and 16lbs of WC-860 powder. (it came with scope bases, and I already had a scope/rings to put on it). With the WC-860 (surplus .50BMG powder, identical to Hod H870), I easily get 3,300fps from a 180gr bullet....... And it will shoot factory ammo, too.
Why I did it, I'm not exactly sure.....
It's not like I NEEDED that much velocity. The regular '06 will do the same job with less noise, recoil,and gun weight. "cheaper" it isn't as the 16lbs of powder cost $50....... So it's actually "Cheaper" to shoot the .300RUM... Go figure! (bullets cost the same either way.....)
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