.38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize?

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I frequently see posts recommending this load for defense. It looked like a great idea to me back in the 70's and I loaded a bunch of 148gr Speer HBWC backwards over 3 gr of Bullseye. I was a bit surprised and disheartened to note at the range that most of them went through the target sideways at 5 yards from my Chief's special. Has anyone come up with a bullet/powder/gun combination that will stabilize these loads or do people keep recommending them because they look scary?
 
No, they will turn around in flight just like a Badminton Shuttle cock would do.

Besides that, they ain't all they were cracked up to be for SD anyway.

If they open without blowing the skirt off?
Penetration is limited because they popped the drag chute when they expanded.

If the skirt blows off?
You got a .380 pistol bullet weight & some shrapnel left, only going way slower.

I think thier real reason for existance is to impress your friends with your all cool reloading skills!

rc
 
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people keep recommending them because they look scary
this they look like a giant hollow point. but in reality it's really designed to expand just a little to seal gasses at low pressure. Like RC said they don't work. Actually they work pretty well as a very low recoiling SD load when loaded correctly they cut a nice path and will penatrate 15-16".
 
I reloaded a few of those a long time ago. Then I shot them and loaded some half jacket HP stuff just a little hot for SD. Later I bought some factory HP stuff and have stayed with that for self defense and reload for fun /target only.

Too much really good factory loads to try out thinking the pros. Kind of like reinventing the wheel.

Mark
 
Back when I was a fulltime cop, fulltime gunsmith, and ammo mfg., I had several officers requesting that I build such a load for them. I had told them that the bullet would be keyholing before they knew it and that it was more of a novelity than a usable load. But I built the load for those that did not want to listen to reason. I tried to tell them all that this was a "myth load" and that either a soft cast SWCHP or a JHP was proven stoppers. But 4 officers were demanding that this was the load they wanted and insisted that they wanted them loaded for them. Can't say I didn't warn them...

One of my additional duties was the Sgt. in charge of the shooting investigation team for our PD, and one night we were called to the scene of an off duty officer involved shooting. Sure enough, there was one of the guys that I had made this load for and it was the round he used. Now the badguy was dead, but he took three rounds at less than 10 ft. The autopsy revealed that two rounds had penetrated under 2.5" into the torso badly disformed, and only one had in fact inflicted a mortal wound by striking a major artery thus causing the subject to bleed out before the medical troops arrived. The round that severed the artery entered keyholed and thus went deeper into the torso.

Our findings were that the incident was handled within the department guidelines and that the officer used every precaution to insure the safety of others in the incident. Internal Affairs was ok with the shooting, and the grand jury said it was a justifiable shooting. But, the officer said that he wished he had listened to me and had used the JHP's that I offered him in the first place. The other three officers that insisted on having the inverted HBWC loads promptly bought JHP loads.

That is my take on the loading of such a round. It is, in my opinion, something to avoid.

Wade
 
I like DEWC's. You can load them up or down to any power level you like. But any kind of wadcutter is slow to reload (most people don't think about that part)
 
Thanks for the replies. Confirmed my thoughts on the subject. I'll be referring some folks to this thread.
 
Without the hollow base facing the powder it sounds like they are not engraving in the rifling.

If you loaded them 'up' they very well may have just stripped and not rotated.

If they spun up they would not have hit sideways.
 
My experience is with reversed plated HBWC at about 950 fps muz vel, with the "leading edge" scored in four places. Inside of 12 feet into ballistic gelatin, the slugs penetrated about six inches and each slug was in four separate pieces weighing anywhere from 30 to 48 grains. Beyond about 15 feet, keyholing was found with penetration of only about 2 or three inches.

Even with keyholing, with such a fast energy dump (900 fps to zero fps) in 2 inches the shock was impressive.

Still, I think a good standard JHP is really the way to go because one cannot choose the distance one has to engage to defend.
 
If they spun up they would not have hit sideways.
Yes, they would.

They are heavy in front and light in back, just like the badminton shuttlecock I mentioned in post #2.
Shot backward, they are heavy in back and light in front, with tremendous drag.

Try to get a shuttlecock to fly backward some time.
Spin or no spin, you can't do it.

rc
 
I too, tried this in the '80s when it was much talked about; pretty scary looking. Then one of the gun rags did an intensive test on backwards loading HBWC for defence. The results were disheartening. Most (over 90%) of the cavaties would just collapse and some would clog with clothing and become a solid. Very few would open up as envisioned, but then many would fragment. I got poor accuracy with mine and after the article (with pictures) I dropped the whole idea. Today my favorite S.D. load in .38 is 148 gr. DEWC loaded over a stiff load of W231. Fairly accurate at 15 yards and the big flat front/meplat for tissue damage...
 
I did it in the late 70's for a while. I think it was Grennel or some similar gun writer that recommended it. I found that out to 50 ft or so they would be reasonable accurate but already starting to yaw a bit.

I do remember shooting them in the water and they make a nice big splash but beyond that they don't do much good. I found just a standard 158 LSWC or a 148 DEWC actually did more damage on game. I remember sewer rat hunting and the 148 DEWC's did more damage then a 148 HBWC did backwards.
 
Same differance.

Still a bass-ackwards bullet that won't stabilize because most the weight is in the rear end.
And will pop the drag chute and fail to penetrate when it hits meat.

rc
 
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