.38+P load for cast bullets

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So, all of the load data is still the same?

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/d...&Weight=180&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

I just found that load, it is pretty new, didn't see it a couple days ago. Then I went over to the overpressure page, and for the 200 grain section, someone has 5.5 grains of Unique in a .38 +P, while the load above that one said 3.7 grains. Is the 5.5 grain load safe? what would the pressure be like?

I weigh all of my powder for my handloads.
 
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Then I went over to the overpressure page, and for the 200 grain section, someone has 5.5 grains of Unique in a .38 +P, while the load above that one said 3.7 grains. Is the 5.5 grain load safe?

That page is for +P loads not over pressure, there is a big difference between the two. If you read the notes portion you will notice that the 5.5gr Unique & 200gr bullet was shot in a S&W M66, that is a .357 magnum. I would not even think about shooting that load in a .38SPL chambered revolver.
 
Isn't +P just an abbreviation for "overpressure"?

The notes portion said to use it only in +p rated revolvers.

Okay, I won't even think of loading any to that level.
 
Isn't +P just an abbreviation for "overpressure"?

The notes portion said to use it only in +p rated revolvers.
+P = Plus Pressure but not overpressure. Overpressure denotes pressures that are over the limits which +P is not. SAAMI has a listing for .38 Special +P so unless you go above their limits you aren't overpressure. Considering the pressures listed on that page are 17,000 PSI they are no only NOT overpressure, they are not even over standard pressures of 17,000 PSI for standard .38 Specials. .38 Special +P's are limited to 20,000 PSI.
 
"Overpressure ammunition, commonly designated as +P or +P+, is small arms ammunition that has been loaded to a higher internal pressure than is standard for ammunition of its caliber (see internal ballistics), but less than the pressures generated by a proof round. This is done typically to produce rounds with a higher muzzle velocity and stopping power, such as ammunition used for defensive purposes. Because of this, +P ammunition is typically found in handgun calibers which might be used for defensive purposes."

That is what I get for trusting Wikipedia :banghead:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpressure_ammunition
 
I did a little load work for my wifes Charter Arms 2" .38 a couple of weeks ago. Not extensive, but here it is:

NOTE: Some of these loads are max or more depending on which manual you use, but not +P. Work up to the loads.

3.8 grs. Unique:

148 gr. WC- 703 fps
152 gr. SWCHP- 690 fps
168 gr. SWCHP- 655 fps
170 gr. SWC- 621 fps

4.2 grs. Unique:

168 gr. SWCHP- 675 fps
170 gr. SWC- 642 fps

4.5 grs. Unique:

148 gr. WC- 810 fps
152 gr. SWCHP- 784 fps
158 gr. SWC- 760 fps
160 gr. SWC- 758 fps

4.7 gr.s Unique:

168 gr. SWCHP- 734 fps

5.0 grs. Unique:

148 gr. WC- 850 fps
152 gr. SWCHP- 860 fps
160 gr. SWC- 775 fps
165 gr. SWC- 791 fps

The 170 gr. bullet is a Lyman 358429, the Keith SWC, the 165 gr. bullet is a Lyman 358156 Thompson SWC. I used Unique exclusively simply because I didn't want to fool with switching powders out of the measure. All loads are home-cast. My RCBS manual has loads for a 175 gr bullet. Out of a 6" barrel they get well over 900 fps with AL2400 and SR4756, both non-+P loads.

As time permits, I'll do some more work with different powders and post the results here.

Hope this helps.

35W
 
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I loaded up some .38s with 3.5 grains of Unique, and 6.8 grains of 2400. These must be pretty close to the same performance, as the 2400 performed better in my four inch, and the Unique performed better in the two inch.

My method of determining penetration is extremely accurate and consistent. I am shooting into a 4"x6" from about two feet away. After I shoot both guns, and both loads, I stick a small screwdriver into the hole and when it hits lead, I hold my finger at that spot and stick the screwdriver into the next hole to see which one penetrated more. Yes, I know, it is very accurate, and precise. :D

I will be using Unique for my snubby from now on.
 
I'm a noob, so maybe i'm wrong... but to get adequate velocity on such a heavy bullet from such a short barrel, wouldn't he need an almost INSANELY hot, energy-dense, fast-burning powder?
No, slower burning powders always yield the highest velocities.


2400 works just fine in the 20,000psi range. We commonly use it in mid-range .45Colt loads for modern guns in the Colt SAA strength range.


Good .38Spl brass is good brass, bad brass is bad brass, regardless of head stamp. Some is good, some is bad. I've used standard pressure .38Spl brass that survived 20+ .38/44 loadings and +P brass that survived only one. If I was buying brass I'd buy Starline. Mine is all Winchester once-fired from their cheap unplated bulk ammo. Works beautifully. Nickel plated Remington +P brass is terrible and usually either splits at the mouth or separates at the cannelure.
 
Umm... No it doesn't. If you have too slow of a powder, not enough of it will burn while the bullet is in the bore, and the rest of it will be expended as muzzle flash. If you have too quick of a powder, it will all burn and all of the gasses that it heats will be fully expanded by the time the bullet is a quarter of the way down the barrel. The remaining portion of the barrel will slow the bullet down before the bullet even leaves the barrel.

To get a high velocity from a heavy bullet with a short barrel, you would need very hot, very quick burning powder, which seems to me to be Unique, at this point.

As proof for my first paragraph, try loading a .38 special with a short barrel with H4831, one of the slower burning rifle powders, and firing it. Next try some Bulleseye (after you make sure that the slug from your previous shot is not stuck in the bore). Try the maximum load of H4831, and try the max recommended load with Bulleseye. Which one actually clears the muzzle with some recognizable force? Which one falls out of the muzzle?

Next, try loading a 26 inch barreled .30-06 with H4831, try a starting load, then work up to the max, and then try it with Bulleseye. Load both to the same pressure inside the case, just so you don't blow your gun up. Which one clears the muzzle with enough force to be useful? Which one sticks in the bore, or barely clears the muzzle?

You can not make an oversimplified statement like that, and expect it to be always true. Sometimes quicker powders are better, sometimes slower powders are better.


Disclaimer: What you do with firearms and reloading equipment is your responsibility. Always check your loads against a published reloading handbook, and NEVER go above the published maximum load. Better yet, stay away form handloading, lead, primers, and powder; and all other things related to firearms, as discharging and cleaning firearms exposes you to compounds that are known to the state of California to cause cancer, birth defects, or other reproductive harm.
 
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Sorry but even the slowest pistol powders are burnt up before the bullet leaves the barrel, even very short barrels. What seems to be burning powder out the front of the barrel is really hot gasses reigniting when the bullet leaves the barrel and Oxygen is again available hot gases. It's really not unburnt powder burning off even after the bullet leaves the barrel.
 
Okay, it isn't powder, but it is still wasteful. If the powder that you were burning burned completely and used less oxygen than a slower burning powder, which would leave some gasses that were not completely expended, it would be more economical; possibly resulting in a higher velocity.
 
Sorry but you're wrong. It should be very obvious that I wasn't referring to the slowest rifle powders known to man. I was referring to slow powders typically used for maximum velocity in handguns. Namely, H110/296 and Lil Gun. Or slightly faster powders like 2400. Not 4831. It is undeniable fact that powders like those always yield the highest velocities in handguns, regardless of barrel length. So no, absolutely not, Bullseye will not yield higher velocities in the short barrel.

The problem here is that the powders that yield the highest velocities are not appropriate to the .38Spl. You can't use enough 2400 for it to show improvement due to pressures involved. Unless we're talking about .38/44 loads. Unique probably is the best powder for this application, due to the pressure range and its medium burning rate as it is not the fastest burning powder available, which the quoted statement implied should be used.


You can not make an oversimplified statement like that, and expect it to be always true. Sometimes quicker powders are better, sometimes slower powders are better.
No, what I quoted is the incorrect, oversimplified statement. For the record, I didn't say better. I don't make oversimplified statements. :rolleyes:


You need to study the burn rate chart:
http://www.reloadbench.com/burn.html
 
It is undeniable fact that powders like those always yield the highest velocities in handguns, regardless of barrel length. So no, absolutely not, Bullseye will not yield higher velocities in the short barrel.

Quoted for truth. Thats a fact, I have heard countless people argue otherwise, but this is fact. Bullseye or AA#2 or any other quick burning powder will never make the velocity, even in a snub nose barrel that 2400 or h110 will. Aint gonna happen.
 
I also completely agree with both posts above. The fastest powders will never generate the higher velocities associated with the slower powders. Again like said above, the slowest powders aren't always the appropriate choices in low pressure calibers like the .38 Special. It's all a balancing act,,, lol
 
Oooohh... Now I get it, if you can get 17000 PSI inside the case with 2400, and the same pressure inside the case with Bullseye, the slower burning load will sustain the pressure longer, adding some energy behind the bullet, that a quicker burning powder would not? The only problem being actually being able to stuff enough slow powder into a case, to get it up to 17000 PSI, right?

Balancing act, right?

Now, since I can't get enough 2400 into a small case, with a huge bullet, what would happen if I stuffed some sort of filler mass into the case with the powder? Some sort of mini-wad? Is such a product in existence? Would I blow my gun up? How do you measure the pressure inside a cartridge case? If this thing is feasible, and it isn't already in existence, how do I go about getting a patent?
 
38 Special- 2" Barrels

Your over thinking this. Load a 158gr LSWC-5.2gr Alliant Unique and forget about it. Hand weight each charge. For practice load the same bullet using 3.0gr of Alliant Bullseye. :) CarryGuns.jpg
 
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