44 caliber...Rifles?

[winston smith]

Are there any? I see that Civil War era revolvers are in .44 or .38 caliber, but all blackpowder Rifles seem to be .45 or .50 caliber or larger.

 

[BHP FAN]

Right,but a Civil War ''.44'' revolver is a .454 or .457,and a .45 caliber Kentucky rifle will typically throw a patched .440 round ball.

 

[bonza]

The revolvers you mention are actually .44 & .36 caliber. However, due to the design of C&B revolvers they use balls measuring .454" & .375" nominally. In respect to muzzleloading roundball rifles, they are available in many calibers from .32 to .62, possibly larger. However, a .45 caliber roundball rifle would usually use a .440" ball, with a cloth patch taking up the balance of the bore's diameter, so in effect a .45 caliber RB rifle is really a .44 caliber! Confused yet?

 

[bonza]

Hah, BHP Fan types faster than me!!

 

[4v50 Gary]

The Henry lever action repeater was 44 caliber - but that was rimmed (fixed) cartridge.

 

[bonza]

The Henry lever action repeater was 44 caliber - but that was rimmed (fixed) cartridge.

Oh, there were a bunch of .44 caliber black powder metalic cartridges: .44 Evans, .44 Henry, .44 WCF, .44/77 Sharps, etc.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

44 cal rifles

There were all manner of calibers in the early muzzleloader days. Generally as bores wore out, the rifling was "freshened" or the gun bored out to a higher caliber. Often from 36 to 40 to 42 to 44 to 46 to 48 to 50 etc.

In the early days of the muzzleloader revival, 1970's there were alot of 44 caliber muzzleloader rifles and pistols. I have an older Pedersoli gun in 44. For some reason manufacturers settled on 45, 50, 54 and 58 and the most common rifle calibers. However, TC made a 56 smoothbore renegade, There are a very few muzzleloader guns still made in 38 caliber. And I have seen a 42. I have seen a hand full of 28 caliber muzzleloaders over the years.

 

[kanook]

how about uberti's revolving 1858 carbine. They came in 12" and 16" barrels.

 

[Das Jaeger]

Carbine

the revolvers shot .450 series bullets, the grooves are .45 something, the lands are .44 something, that's why they call them .44's and not .45's . Which is the opposite of how they determine caliber nowadays .
So techinically the old revolvers are truly .45's not .44's .
Sounds better too

Jaeger

 

[winston smith]

Thanks for the responses. Now one additional question, if I buy a .44 civil war type blackpowder revolver, what blackpowder rifle- of any era, but more modern is prefered- can I use the same projectiles with, if any?

 

[arcticap]

if I buy a .44 civil war type blackpowder revolver, what blackpowder rifle- of any era, but more modern is prefered- can I use the same projectiles with, if any?

None really. Not unless you get really lucky and find a rifle with a common custom or metric bore that someone else built.

As mentioned in post #3, the balls for the revolvers are:

.375 or .380 balls for the .36 revolver [depending on make]
.350 balls for the .36 rifle.

and

.451 or .454 balls for the .44 revolver. [.457 balls for the .45 Ruger Old Army].
.440 and .445 balls for the .45 rifle.

Some of the .451 conical pistol bullets will fit in both a .44 revolver and .45 rifle, but the pistol bullets usually don't shoot very good from a rifle. And .451 round balls are generally just too tight to load in .45 rifles.

The only revolver that I know of that shoots rifle caliber balls is a Clements custom .50 Ruger Old Army conversion that's designed to shoot .490 balls, the same balls that fit .50 caliber rifles.
But it's an expensive conversion that requires your own Ruger frame plus at least $1000. And then the conicals that it shoots are special cast slightly smaller.

http://www.clementscustomguns.com/rugerrevolvers.html

You might be able to find a European metric bore with the right barrel to shoot revolver balls, but most folks would order a custom barrel to fit to their rifle stock.

Even a .44 rifle uses a .429 or .433 ball while the .44 revolver uses the larger balls listed above.

 

[BCRider]

It's odd isn't it? You'd think that some bright wig even back then in the Army would have looked around and come up with the idea of a specification that the guns accept the same size balls for both by sizing the revolver bores to shave and force fit the same balls that were used patched in the rifles. Or would such a thought have smacked far too much of common sense for the Army? What the heck was Colt thinking of when he picked the bore sizes? Especially when the orginal .45 muzzle loading percussion pistols used the same patched .440 ball as the .45 rifle.

Or am I missing out on some significant historical or practical reason why it was better to have two incompatible sizes?

 

[JamesKelly]

When Colt revolvers were up & coming, the Army rifle was a muzzle-loading .54 caliber. I believe it took a .52 cal ball. The single shot horse pistols of the time, both flint and percussion, weere also nominal .54 cal. Carbines were commonly .54 caliber, I think Hall made a smoothbore carbine to use the musket size ball. Smoothbore muskets were .69 caliber and took a smaller dia ball, let me cheat & call it 15 to the pound.

I believe there was a logical reason why Colt picked the calibers he did, e.g.
.28, .31, .36 & .45 but I don't recall it . . . H---, I don't recall breakfast. Has to do with the weight of the conical bullet to fit. Someone with tables handy might know if a the original .45 conical "ball" for a Walker is the same weight, in grains, as the .520" dia round ball used in a single-shot "horse pistol".

 

[Hawkeye748]

I don't see how you can match a CW era revolver to the same era with a ML rifle of same Caliber, not without a bit of customizing.

Now if you are willing to move forward a few years, there were numerous rifles made to match pistol bullets. The best known are the Winchester CF series: 25-20, 32-20, 38-40, 44-40 WCF cartridges. The Winchester company made lever action repeating centerfire rifles in these calibers and pistols were made to match. Also, single shot rifles were made in the same calibers.

As said earlier, there were a bunch of CW rifles in 44 caliber but all were of the rimfire cartridge type. The Henry was the best known but also well used and like were the Ballard and Wesson Carbines. Only the Henry is currently available as a repro. It comes in 44-40 and 45 Long Colt. If you want accuracy at distance, get the 44-40.

BTW, the military as a rule, did not use a patched ball. Some used the paper cartridges to some extent but mostly, it was discarded to ease loading. The exception I am aware of was the first issue of Model 1841 rifles. These used a lubed leather patch and were VERY accurate.

 

[arcticap]

edit

 

[bonza]

You'd think that some bright wig even back then in the Army would have looked around and come up with the idea of a specification that the guns accept the same size balls for both by sizing the revolver bores to shave and force fit the same balls that were used patched in the rifles.

With C&B revolvers we're generally looking at a time frame of approx. 1849 to 1870. At that time the military had pretty much done away with roundball-shooting longarms having progressed to the Minie ball & similar conical bullets, & besides while revolvers were generally either .36 or .44 caliber the military M/L muskets of the time were generally .58 caliber which was then considered to be a small bore when compared to the .69 caliber muskets of just a decade or so earlier.

 

[bonza]

Winchester CF series: 25-20, 32-20, 38-40, 44-40 WCF cartridges. The Winchester company made lever action repeating centerfire rifles in these calibers and pistols were made to match.

Correct, with the exception of the .25/20WCF, which to my knowledge was never chambered in a handgun with the possible exception of a T/C Contender.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

During the short age of cap andd ball revolvers, the smaller bore muzzleloaders were out of fashion. The military knew that large long bullets could kill at long distances with moderate powder charges and went with that. As I recall, however, there were one or two muzzleloader rifles which are made to accomodate a 451 patched Ball. But they were European and finding one may be quite expensive. I have seen some bubba attempts to build muzzleloaders with old cartridge barrels, for instance, I have a tradoor that some idiot cut away the action and installed a the original breech tang on a shortened barrel and put the gun back to gether as a muzzleloader. ($25.00 at a flea market, figured the lock to be worth around $100.00) Original stock another $100.00, etcc.) It sure insn't HC.

 

[Hawkeye748]

There was the Whitworth that was made in 45 Caliber but it shoots a very special hexagonal shaped bullet. Excellent for long range and was used by both sides in the CW for sniper work, not general issue.

Today Euroarms make a "Volunteer" rifle in .451. I believe it shoots a conical bullet not patched ball. Last one I saw ran about a grand.

 

[winston smith]

The level of knowledge on this board is outstanding!

Just starting on BP. I think I'll go with a .44 revolver and a .50 rifle.

Thanks again!