.45-70 Forager Round / Rat Shot

[Googleplex]

Food for thought, speculation, and debate: I know back in the late 19th century, the US Army used a "forager" load consisting of a thin wood bullet and shot for small game. Do you think if a similar load, such as a ".45-70 Rat Shot" were created by an individual reloader for personal use today, would it be effective? Assume the target is a jackrabbit at 15-25 yards.

 

[MechAg94]

Rat Shot? Aren't you almost at Buck Shot size?

 

[Googleplex]

Well, I suppose you could do buckshot for home defense.

 

[jeepnik]

You could make such a load with say #4 shot. But I think two things would happen. First, you pattern would be hugh at any significant distance, due to the rifling. And second, you'd likely lead up the bore something terrible.

On the plus side, you didn't suggest using .410 shotgun shells in it.

 

[Googleplex]

Oh, I've heard lots of negative talk about .410 shells in the .45-70. Namely rim fit. Perhaps it (ratshot .45-70 load) would work cleanly with non-toxic steel shot?

 

[hipoint]

I'll agree, I just sold my Circuit Judge rifle/shotgun combo because with the rifling in the barrel the shot made a donut pattern that opened wider the farther it went... so say a 15 yard shot with that gun (with the 'rifle' choke in) meant I had to aim about 3-4 feet to the side...

I think the only way to truly accomplish what you want is an over/under combo, that's what I finally accepted anyhow.

 

[jeepnik]

Oh, I've heard lots of negative talk about .410 shells in the .45-70. Namely rim fit. Perhaps it (ratshot .45-70 load) would work cleanly with non-toxic steel shot?

Yep, the reason for my sarcasm. I've actually heard gun shop experts (empolyees) telling folks they could use .410's in a 45-70. It just seems to be one of those bad pieces of advice that has a life of it's own.

 

[blindhari]

For foraging with a 45-70 I recomend a 150 grain collar button over TrailBoss, useful load out to 50yds

blindhari

 

[Owen Sparks]

I have heard that you can fire a 2 3/4" .410 shell in a .45/70. The spin imparted by the rifling will cause patterns to "donut" though. It would only be good at very close range and impractical for wing shooting as patterns would have a big hole in them. It would probably work OK for snakes.

 

[TurtlePhish]

.410 chambers and fires in a .45-70, but it won't extract most of the time due to the undersized rim. And there's also the aforementioned "donut" and fouling problems.

 

[David Sinko]

I use a single .490" round ball coated with alox ahead of a light charge of 231. It's extremely accurate at 50 yards. That's as tricky as I want to get in the .45-70.

Dave Sinko

 

[Googleplex]

For foraging with a 45-70 I recomend a 150 grain collar button over TrailBoss, useful load out to 50yds

Collar Buttons? Is that like a semi-wadcutter? Interesting. What size of powder charge would that require?

 

[StrawHat]

Googleplex, The Collar Button bullet was designed by the Springfield Armory to allow the soldiers a way to target practice without the recoil associated witht he 405 grain loads. It weighed nearly thte same as the round ball but because it was conical in shape, it was much esaier to load.

Here's a photo.



I believe the Armory supplied a 10 gang mold to supply the Troopers.

 

[GooseGestapo]

I've got/loaded such a round.
I use 10.0gr of Unique and a card wad from corregated cardboard over the powder, then I fill the case to 1/8" below the mouth with #8 or #9 birdshot (or larger, but that thins pattern even more-fewer shot).
I use an over shot wad cut from cardboard (such as cracker box or primer slides), and crimp the wad in place. I use a thin point maker to mark shot size on o/s wad.

Pattern is sufficent for small game to 10-15yds. As others have noted, the pattern thins out quickly. Basically it approximates a .410 1/2oz load from a cylinder bore.

My rifle will not feed or fire a .410.
It's the .45Colt that will "occasionally" feed/fire a .410. However, my Win. M94 .45lc will not feed fire a .410 as action is too short. It does fire/feed a .45lc "shot" load...

I make a "shot load" with the .45Colt cases that will feed/fire from my .410 O/U. -similar to above except I use 5.0gr of Bullseye and 0.4oz of birdshot.
But, a .45lc case that has been "hot loaded" will not chamber or extract. Only OFB from "factory" or "Cowboy" loads are useable. For such loads, I prefer the Magtech brass as it is thinner and more easily sized to fit the chambers on my .410 O/U.

FIWW; In the spring and early summer, the carpenter bee's really go after the pine trim on my Log Home (main structure is cypress, bee's ignore it...). My favorite "bee" load is the .45lc case with 3.6gr of Bullseye and instead of birdshot (it works too...) I load corn-cob polishing media (untreated). From the .410 O/U it is effective on the "Bee's" to about 30ft. A lot of fun too!

 

[Googleplex]

StrawHat- Would the button be a decent varmint load?

Goose- That's interesting. The idea of hunting bugs sounds entertaining.

 

[StrawHat]

Googleplex ...StrawHat- Would the button be a decent varmint load ?...

Don't see why not, it would depend on how far you wanted to shoot and at what velocity. Much easier to load than a roundball and grabs the rifling better also. I have only made a couple of pours with my mold and most of them were shot from handguns. My 45 long Colt did okay but the big suprise came when I sized them down to .430 and shot them from my 44 Colt. A full case of black powder and the 150 grain boolit made a decent load. Not good enough to replace the origianl 200 grain boolit but fun anyway.

I intend to load it over black powder in the 45-70 and will let you know how it does.

For carpenter bees and lightning bugs, 22 blanks work if you get up close.

 

[TurtlePhish]

Guess what: went to a tiny gunshop I just discovered to check it out and meet the owner, turns out he had an original one of these "forager" .45-70 cartridges on display. It's interesting- nickel plated brass case, a little shorter than a normal .45-70 case, but with a longer bullet, all wooden, with the shot packed loose and rattly inside.

 

[Coop45]

Back in the 60's (I was a youngster then) someone wrote an article in Guns and Ammo about how the .458 Winchester Magnum was the perfect all around rifle. It would take anything from elephants to squirrels. His squirrel load was shot over wads. I didn't pay close attention to the article because my .22 worked well on squirrels and there was a shortage of elephants in central Texas at the time. Maybe he wasn't completely crazy after all.

 

[StrawHat]

That 458 Winchester case is nothing but a 45-90 with a belt. Not big on shot loads in a rifled barrel myself but the round ball or Collar Button has worked for decades.