.45 acp for Brown/Grizzly defense

[axeman_g]

All,

Especially you folks in the the Wilds of Alaska ... My uncle and I are begining to plan a trip to Alaska for some ptarmigan hunting and maybe some fishing.

I quick concern I would like to get out of the way ... I will be bringing my shotguns of course, but will carry a sidearm. Will my .45 acp Colt Commander pack enough punch as a final defense line against brownies?
Should I upgrade to a 5inch barrel for this trip ... or leave it at home and get something LARGER....

Once again, I will have my double barrel but feel that my main SD will be a sidearm.

Your suggestions are welcome for alternatives.

As always ....

Axe

 

[Selfdfenz]

I'm no expert but even as a last line of defense I'd have to say the 45 is a non-starter when it comes to something as big and bad as those somethings get to be. Do you think carrying a 1911 will give you a false sense of security?

But if.... if .....I was in a situation that demanded I use a 1911 just before (LLD) being eaten by a griz or big brownie I would blaze away. I think trying to "stay busy" before the bad times started would be a good idea.

I think Wild posted a picture of a very shortened lever gun designed for Unfortunate Bear Encounters of the Worst Kind. It was a dandy.

I envy anyone getting to go visit Alaska, bears or no. Hope you have a safe and excellent trip.
S-

 

[jercamp45]

The ACP is too light for an irrate brownie!

If you were just concerned about 2 legged varmits, the .45 acp will do very nicely...even for general field use in the lower 48, the acp is my choice!
But bear defense means IT be coming to take a bite outta you....and brownies are BIG and fierce when they get irritated! The ACP IS better than most autoloading rounds for that purpose, and can indeed kill a large critter...but big bears charging have a rep of being hard to stop with rifle rounds!
First I'd get Brenneke slugs for the shotgun and practise abit with them to see where they are hitting for both your barrels(I understand, by reading, that the barrels hit too different points of impact with slugs....my limited experience with shotguns were Remmy 870's...two of them over four years in Alaska, loaded with Brenneke slugs)
The .45 acp on a large bruin...reminds me of that image of the hawk diving on a mouse, the mouse standing there meeting his fate(no where to run), pointing his middle finger at the hawk....the image was called The Last Great Act Of Defiance!!
Now, that image if changed to a charging bear and the mouse holding a .45...well, .45 mouse has a better chance....but even with great skill, I think it is more a matter of luck.
Adding a conversion barrel for the .460 Rowland(www.clarkcustomguns.com) to you government model would add a bit of power to the equasion. The 230 gr hits 1200 FPS out of the Rowland!
If I went up to Alaska for a trip, I'd buy the 460 kit for my government and pray I never needed it. If I was going on extended bouts in the bush...I'd get a Marlin Guidegun .45-70!(the .45 of choice for bear!)
A couple of pennies worth of thoughts.
Jercamp45

 

[treeprof]

In general, how's your luck?

A .45 ACP is real, real, thin for bear defense. Heavy buck or maybe a slug in your shotgun would be better, but not for the birdies, of course and if you really need it you won't have time to switch out shells. Awful unwieldy, as well. I'd opt for a big-bore carbine or short bbl shotgun (Mossberg 5xx series, Remington 870, Winchester). A big bore handgun (heavy loaded .44 or maybe .45 Colt, .454 Casull, etc.) would be next down the list. Also, if you're in the Interior, you're dealing w/a much different bear (medium griz or black bear) than big coastal browns.

 

[Keith]

A 45acp is just plain silly for brown bears.

Don't bring a sidearm at all. If you have a handgun, you'll think you're armed and leave your shotgun back in the tent or something when you need it.

Just bring your shotgun and some pepper spray. A load of birdshot in the face at close range is better than a .45. A couple of slugs in your shirt pocket or at the bottom of the magazine would be a good idea...

But, WHERE are you planning on going and at what time of year? If you're hitting the road system the odds are a hundred to one you'll never even see a brown bear.

Keith

 

[uglymofo]

Is 50AE (ala Magnum Research Desert Eagle) big enough?

 

[GooseGestapo]

One of the best works of literature I ever read was that of Rudyerd Kipling called Riki Tiki Tavi, which a highly enlightened 9th grade English teacher I had offered up as a choice of readings for a book report writing assignment.

In that work, Kipling related an experience he had with a buffalo, and the "backup" Colt 1911 he carried.

Based on the stated experience that it took most of 3 magazines and several hours for the Buffalo to succomb to the multiple lung/spine shots he rendered it, I would personnaly consider a .45 if you happen to be carrying one, as the absolutely last ditch line of defense, and then only if you're "treed" but in a relatively secure position, ie: as Kipling was in an Accacia tree. Seems the first two magazines just "REALLY" pissed off the buffalo!

On the other hand, rather than just bite and claw you a few times, if you shoot the bear with the .45, and REALLY piss him off, he won't be satisfied with just "roughing" you up, and will just bite your head off, rendering you DRT, and spare you the suffering!
OR, you could just shoot yourself with the .45 and spare HIM the trouble!

I really would recommend something a little more substantial.

But what do I know?, I've never shot a Brown or Griz, but know a few who have. Only ones I've seen in the flesh were in Zoo's or research facilities, and I'd prefer not to play ball with one (ie: you're the ball!) Consider that most say the .30/06 is a bit light, and the .375 H&H is better, and the guides prefer something .458WinMag or larger for one thats been wounded and has run off.
.45acp, NOT !!

 

[Obiwan]

Extra barrel length is not going to help much

.45 for bear defense is fine...

Shoot your buddy in the leg...and then run

 

[10-Ring]

Go w/ something BIGGER & FASTER! Think 454 casull

 

[VG]

You all just read about the last bear attack in Alaska, right? The guy was carrying a slung rifle and didn't even get it unslung before the bear was on him.

A friend of mine grew up in Alaska and went fishing once with a .357 Mag. His mother grounded him for a week for not taking a rifle.

Substitute "Light Armored Vehicle" for bear nd see how this sounds?

 

[axeman_g]

oh my .......

I seem to have inflamed a nerve with my ignorance.

I now see the correlation of Light Armored Vehicle and Brownie ...ok ... I get it. We are looking to fly out of the kodiak area ...

Well, it seems as if my shotgun of choice just got put back in the safe for this trip. I will be looking into a 12g pump with mag extension, 2 rounds #7.5, 4+ rounds of 000 buck and breneke slugs!!!!!
I dont want to shoot my uncle, but ....that reminds of a favorite song of mine, "Me and my Uncle".

I think I might look for a nice used .44 mag or 10mm for this trip. Just to hit him over the head with as he chews on my hip.

I will remember this post as I start my dirt nap.

Axe

 

[Keith]

Well, Kodiak is definitely big brown bear country and if you come here you will almost certainly see some brown bears. When you do, you'll know why handguns are considered silly...

And excuse the "inflamed nerve" but it's an old subject that comes up frequently on this board. A grizzly is an enormous and very dangerous predator. A brownie can be three times the size of a grizzly, and just as likely to give you problems. You don't want to shoot one with a handgun if you have a better alternative.

And take my advice about the pepper spray! You probably can't fly with it on the plane, but you can buy it when you arrive and it's very useful. Most bear encounters are more about bears nosing around the camp than attacking you. A squirt of pepper spray is good business. A Brenneke slug is the end of your vacation.

Keith

 

[1911Tuner]

.45 for Griz

Sure! Here's whatcha do.

Have a full melt done on the gun and remove the sights. That way,
when the bear takes it away from ya and sticks it where the sun
don't shine, it won't hurt as bad.

Cheers!
Tuner

 

[Al Thompson]

Hey Tuner, is that from personal experience?

Axe, check Keith's location. He's the guy for "The Emerald Isle".

 

[1911Tuner]

Experience

LOL...Kinda, except I was tryin' to figure how to melt a Winchester
M-70 in time... (.338 mag) The bear died enroute and knocked me down as he skidded to a stop...Big Brown. Let's NOT do that again.

Tuner (The squirrel hunter!)

 

[treeprof]

Ooh, Kodiak! Whole 'nother bear planet out there - great big'uns. Listen to Keith. I have spent but minimal time there, but I know that a handgun ain't the animal you want. And he's right, don't underestimate the pepper spray. Lot's of unfortunate bears meet their demise for no good reason.

 

[1911Tuner]

Ya see...

The problem with big Browns and Grizzers ain't killin'em so much as it is
makin'em understand that they've lost the fight. Most of'em take a
little convincin'.

Good luck!

Tuner

 

[marvl]

I think maybe one of the best "anti-barr" weapons would be a .458 SOCOM carbine. This cartridge uses the same .458 bullets as the .45-70 but delivers higher muzzle velocities, especially with 405gr bullets. Plus, an unmodified AR15 30-round magazine will hold 11 rounds of .458 SOCOM. Here's mine, built by Marty van ter Weeme of Teppo Jutsu:

 

[Quartus]

YEah, so who says you don't need an assault rifle for hunting?!!?

 

[Gerald McDonald]

45 acp is probably overkill, after all you just need to disable your uncle long enough for you to escape. You might wish to practice running with your uncle to make sure he's not much faster than you. You need to know at what point to draw down on him.

 

[LeonCarr]

LeonCarr School of Kodiak Bear Hunting Answer: If it can eat you, or knock you several feet when it swats you upside the head, carry a minimum of a 12 gauge riot type extended capacity shotgun loaded with alternating slugs and 000 buckshot, or maybe even all slugs. I have never been grizzly/kodiak bear hunting, but if I ever get the privilege, I will have a minimum of a .338 Winchester Magnum loaded with 250 grain Nosler Partitions. IMNSHO you can never have too much gun when dealing with the big bears.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[sanchezero]

Maybe 45ACP would do from the right gun. Look into a Thompson with a drum or one of the HK doorkicker carbines if you're on a budget .

That .458 SOCOM or .50 Beowulf would suffice I'm sure. Besides, everyone needs one of those oddball superARs.

 

[Aikibiker]

There is a thread on ar15.com forums with a link to a news article about some farmer in AK that recently killed a grizzly breaking into his chicken coop with a .410 shotgun loaded with bird shot. He thought he would be shooting a skunk and came face to face with a charging momma bruin. Some how this guy managed to luck out and fire his shot directly up the bear's nose. (tried my best to find it, but I don't have an account there and can't use the search function)

The game warden they interviewed for comments was amazed.

I would suggest an HK MP-10.

If you are married to the .45acp go with sanchezero's Thompson suggestion.

 

[CZF]

Geez, after seeing a net pic of a half ate guy. An unlucky victim of
an angry Grizzly.It was a gruesome sight!

I keep my 45-70 close by at all times if i travel north to grizzly country. A 454 or even a .480 sounds far better than any 44 or 10mm.

I'm told that the brenneke slugs are highly regarded for bear defense.