.45 ACP +P Ammunition

[BigV]

I went to one of my local gun shops today and found they had Remington Golden Saber.45 ACP (+P) 185 grain jacketed HP on special for $12.95 for a box of 25. I picked up the last 4 boxes they had. Later I went to the range and shot 500 rounds of .45 ACP 230 grain FMJ between my 2 Kimber’s. Before leaving I decided to run 2 clips (7 rounds per clip) through each gun to see how the Remington + P’s performed. I have never shot + P ammunition before and the first thing I noticed was the HUGE muzzle flash. The other thing I notice was more recoil. Other than that, the Remington’s shot the same for the small number of shots taken. Anyone know of any advantages of using + P ammunition over say Federal 165 grain Hydra Shock or something similar? Thanks.
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[MCgunner]

More energy, but most .45 guys don't believe you need any energy. The added velocity will help insure bullet expansion, too.

 

[fastbolt]

Anyone know of any advantages of using + P ammunition

Well, folks often debate the 'advantages', but I prefer to consider to potentially more likely, inherent 'disadvantages' ...

You've experienced first hand a couple of them. Increased muzzle blast and felt recoil. To what extent you may notice them, and be adversely affected by them ... especially in an unexpected, physically and emotionally difficult, life-threatening situation ... is open to conjecture for each person.

There's also the potential for increased and/or accelerated wear & tear to occur on the pistol, though, the least of which is the accelerated wear on the involved springs (recoil & magazine).

Some of the manufacturer's LE armorer classes I've attended have mentioned it's okay to use such ammunition if it's issued and required by the user agency, but have also discussed the need to periodically check for potential problems which may be related to the increased recoil forces acting on the guns. One class specifically mentioned the need to check for cracking in the frame insert in one model when +P ammunition is used. Then again, some manufacturers might not recommend the use of +P .45 ACP ammunition in their models at all, and owners ought to check with the manufacturers of their particular pistols.

Even presuming a given manufacturer might allow the use of +P .45 ACP, to whatever extent, accelerating the wear on the recoil spring might result in sooner signs of weakening springs, such as the failure to lock the slide back on an empty magazine, and/or feeding issues because of increased slide velocities. Potential battering because of weakened recoil springs may be a potential issue to consider, too.

I remember talking to someone from one manufacturer, and he mentioned that they had increased the rating of their recoil spring, and had modified the magazine lips, follower and spring to try and compensate for what they perceived as an increasing commercial trend for some of their customers to try and "magnumize" (his word, not mine) their .45 ACP pistols by using +P ammunition.

Personally, I've long since decided that the use of +P pressure .45 ACP ammunition offers me more potential disadvantages than any practical advantages.

Granted, velocity windows and minimum velocity thresholds for expansion can vary from bullet to bullet, design to design, and some of the newer ones are seemingly much more likely to offer consistent expansion (or even any expansion ) than previous, traditional designs. Wider velocity windows and improved bullet designs and materials have given us some better choices.

Some folks, however, feel muzzle energy is the be-all and end-all of ammunition performance ... or, at least, is a critical factor for them when selecting ammunition. Their choice, their responsibility ...

Some folks seemingly feel the increased muzzle blast and recoil mean it's 'more powerful', and in some useful way, or they simply 'enjoy it'. Again, their choice and their responsibility.

It's been mentioned that perhaps the added velocity obtained in a particular load (bullet design) might potentially compensate for any unintentional production defects, like broach cutters not fully scoring the jacketing.

For my needs, I see little or no practical reason to subject either my pistols, or myself, to the effects of increased recoil and muzzle blast when it comes to .45 ACP ... but that's just me.

I'm certainly nobody's expert, though ...

 

[usa1993]

Fastbolt is right. If a run of the mill 45 wont do the trick, you're in deep sh*t.

 

[gdvan01]

Well said, fastbolt.

Personally, I've long since decided that the use of +P pressure .45 ACP ammunition offers me more potential disadvantages than any practical advantages.

Well...unless the zombies attack.

;-)

 

[MCgunner]

For my needs, I see little or no practical reason to subject either my pistols, or myself, to the effects of increased recoil and muzzle blast when it comes to .45 ACP ... but that's just me.

Well, .45 +P ain't squat to the .357 magnum I often carry. And, a load should be matched with a recoil spring rate to take that power level. I shoot a Ruger P90 that's hell for stout anyway and I have an 18 lb spring in it. It works better than the stock spring even with standard loads, though. Don't have to go as far to find my fired brass.

I look on the +P stuff in .45 same way as I do in .38 special in J frame guns. I limit 'em at the range and carry with them. Put a couple hundred through your gun to check 'em out for function and, if satisfied, just carry 'em. Don't hurt to fire 'em now and then in practice, just not a 100% diet.

If I shot a 1911, I'd worry more about accelerated wear than I do with my Ruger. I'm quite sure that Ruger will outlast me. I've owned it 15 years now and it's like new and still strong. Of course, I admit, I haven't fired that much +P in it and I don't think my carry load would be +P pressure. It puts up about 400 ft lbs, a 200 grain JHP Speer over Unique at 950 fps. I figure that's enough for defense. Muzzle blast and flip seem low, but again, I'm a magnum revolver guy at heart.

 

[BigV]

fastbolt , Thanks, that was exactly the information I was looking for.

 

[fastbolt]

Well, .45 +P ain't squat to the .357 magnum I often carry. No argument there ...

Carried a .357 Magnum as an issued revolver for several years. Favored either 145gr STHP for a more or less medium-powered load, and then 125gr JHP's for most other uses. Also carried a few speedloaders of the early Norma 158gr truncated nose FMJ, too. Ran about 1450fps (158gr bullet, remember), and I carried it for 'special circumstances' while working a remote, rural area. (We weren't restrcited to hollow point/cavity ammunition back then.) Had some recoil and a bit of snap to it ...

I have an early Ruger KP90DC .45, and it's been a fine pistol over the years. Had to have the slide replaced when it was brand new because of what the factory called a hardening problem. Later had to replace a few small parts here and there as the round count racked up over the years, too. Well used pistol ...

According to the factory, the current P90's use a heavier recoil spring than the earlier ones. I think it's a 13 lb spring presently versus the older 11 lb spring (which was the same spring used in the 9mm models, BTW).

Back when I was still experimenting with a lot of .45 ACP +P loads, I used some of the heavier Wolff recoil springs in my P90, and even tried a recoil spring from a P91 (talk about a stout spring). The heavier springs certainly made for a controllable level of felt recoil, but they were rather uncompromising when it came to grip firmness and locked wrist issues, depending on the loads. I started wearing a ball cap to keep the occasional errant empty case from bouncing off my forehead.

During some conversations with different folks at the Ruger plant, I was reminded that heavier recoil springs generally require heavier loads, and I might experience some erratic extraction/ejection, depending on the rating of the spring and pressure of the loads used with the different springs. Right they were ...

FWIW, I still prefer the original P90 magazines, too. I've never cared for the shorter folded-leaf type magazine followers used in the newer P90 magazines, although I can see how the small indentations in each of the magazine lips can be useful to help prevent the top rounds from being dislodged under the heavy recoil of +P loads. In my older magazines, using one manufacturer's 200gr +P load, I experienced some instances where the last live, unfired round was displaced by the recoil of the next-to-the-last round, when fired, and the last live round was ejected from the pistol, with the empty case of the fired round. Like I was later told in a Colt armorer's class, the Ruger folks told me at that time that this was likely an example of the +P load's increased recoil simply overcoming the magazine spring, and allowing the round to slip free of the magazine lips under recoil.

I also have to admit to originally (and still) being a Magnum revolver shooter. Mainly Ruger SA revolvers. Still favor them, too. While I haven't reloaded for many years, it used to be my favorite hobby which I shared with my father while growing up, and then as a young man.

I no longer carry any of my .44 Magnum revolvers as off-duty weapons ... not much time for trips into the backwoods in recent years, either ... but I still sometimes take either a Redhawk or a 629 Classic through one of our qualification courses of fire. I usually just grab whatever easy-to-reach .44 Magnum ammunition is on top in the safe or the ammunition locker ... 180gr JHP's, 240gr JHP's, 315gr JHP's or some stoutly handloaded 250gr hardcast I still have ... just to show how controllable a Magnum revolver can really be on a regular course of fire in which our folks are using 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP pistols.

Not a lot of folks tend to shoot Magnum revolvers in LE circles, anymore, at least not out here. I remember using expensive store bought Magnum ammunition back when I carried a 66 and then a 686, even though remanufactured .38 Spl 158gr LSWC +P was provided at no charge for qualification. Lots of guys didn't want to qualify with Magnum ammunition, or even practice with it, for reasons of both cost and recoil, even though they typically carried it ... but I tried to wear out my last 686, running a few thousand rounds through it before ordered to turn it in for the new 9mm pistols. I missed my .357 Magnum for quite a while ...

So, aside from being a Magnum revolver guy myself ...

I never said I hadn't used .45 +P in the past, and used it by the case lot, truth be told.

Just said I didn't have any use for it ... nowadays.

Best to you MC.

 

[40jjb]

45 acp +p

In that cal.. i would stick with the normal velocities and 230 gr. the biger the rnd and wait , the better it is, A Gold Dot 230 gr. would be perfect if you would want to use hollowpoints, +P In 45 acp I see a waist of money and time, this cal. has great penetration and stoping abilities.

 

[Walkalong]

For 5" guns give me a standard pressure 230 Gr. bullet of the HP variety.

I like 200 Gr. +P and 230 Gr. Standard pressure loads for carry in my CDP II Ultra. The little extra with the 200 Gr. just makes me feel a little better with the lighter bullet and helps a little in a 3" barrel.

 

[Geno]

I read the research...+p not needed

I have viewed many videos that show various rounds and configuration, and the researches have basically concluded that for penetration, few pistol rounds can out-strip the .45 ACP with 230 ball. That said, there is a benefit to HP rounds, if they will cycle properly in your pistol. For me, I avoid the +Ps for my 1911s. I really like the Win Clean rounds, and do use some HPs, such as the Win Perso, Protection 230 HP. Combining 230 grains, with its MASSISVE HP, nearly 9MM in diameter would have to hurt. No +P for me.

 

[.357 magnum]

BigV

First off BigV that is an excellent price for Remington ammo! I am not that educated on the Kimber. My XD's and Tauruses are both rated for +P ammo, even in .45 acp. I do not see a need for it however, unless you are using a barrel length less then 4 inches. Expansion is not very good with a .45 acp 230gr when you get into less then a 4inch barrel.[cartridge velocities are just too low] Remington 185 grain even in the non +P is the best self defense ammo for .45 acp less then 4 inch barrel. Very good ammo! My understanding is that Kimber's are mostly 5 inch and 4 inch barrels? which means you cannot beat the 230gr ammo. For self defense I use the Winchester 230gr SXT [very accurate too] or the Federal 230gr Hydra-shok these are the best stoppers for self defense in 230gr. I tried some Power-Ball 165 gr in my XD a couple of times and it is not worth the increase in muzzle flash and recoil.

MCgunner- I disagree that the .357 is the ultimate. I carried one as a duty weapon for almost eight years. Because of the velocity of the cartridge both the noise and recoil become a pain in the butt. If I were to go back to LE [not gonna happen, I am fifty now and have had two hip replacements on the right side, due to being shot by a .45] I would prefer the .45 acp--Less noise, less recoil, less muzzle flash, and more capacity. I still shoot the .357 mag but really enjoy the .45 acp much more. My nightstand gun is a Springfield XD .45acp Tactical. The .45 and .357 are equal stoppers so I really see more advantages to the .45

The Best to All!

Frank

 

[MikePGS]

I use a website that i think i got from someone on this forum to look up the effectiveness of different types of ammo. http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=18&Weight=All if you look at that, it shows that in regards to stopping power a 185 grain Gold Saber is the equivalent of a 230 grain hydrashock, at least so far as the percentage of one shot stops are (96 percent with each of the rounds). It also lists + P ammo for the .45 and the highest percentage they get is from the 185 grain JHP, which comes to 92 percent. So really according to that, the typical ammo performs better than the + p stuff. Though really anything 45 is probably enough, and if its not i suggest you start carrying a shotgun

 

[orionengnr]

I do not see a need for it however, unless you are using a barrel length less than 4 inches. Expansion is not very good with a .45 acp 230gr when you get into less then a 4inch barrel.[cartridge velocities are just too low]

Ding Ding Ding.

I do not own a 5" 1911. I do have a 3" 1911 and a ~4" Kahr P45. Both run fine with 45+p Ranger 230 gr.

 

[Plink]

Then there's Double Tap ammo. They're beating most +P velocities and are doing it at standard pressure. The guy sure knows his powders. I refuse to use 185 grains, but I've shot the 200 and 230 grain loads a lot in everything from 1911s, to a Ruger P-97 and I carry the 230 grainers in my Bersa. I'm not one that worships velocity, but to get a 230 grainer to expand reliably, speed sure don't hurt.