.45acp Load Development - Part 2

[Saluki91]

As always - Thanks for any sage advice the collective can offer.

Per some great suggestions from a previous post, I shortened the OAL of my 200gr SWC loads (1.235" seems to be as short as I can get them), and ran them through the chrono again today. The results are attached for those who care to see them. There are some spikes and drops in velocities that seem to stand out. Is it possible that those powders don't like my 750XL powder measure, or is there something else that I need to address. FWIW, I do not have these issues with my 9mm Vecatan loads.

It appears that - for the most part - my velocities are much more in step with published data for WIN 244 and AA #5. The proverbial wrench in the works is Vectan BA9. It is considerably slower than published data. It also provided the best groups by a considerable margin. Perhaps I should just load, shoot, and not worry about the velocity...?

Of greater concern is the frequency of FTE with this 1911. It was most frequent with the WIN 244 and AA#5 loads. It only happened once with the Vectan, and that was with the largest charge. Is this related to OAL, or perhaps a mechanical issue?

Another concern is deformed case mouths. What could be causing this? Is it possible that these are related to the FTE? I attached a pic.

Thank you in advance!

Cheers!

 

[GBExpat]

... Another concern is deformed case mouths. What could be causing this? ...

Those look to me like cases that have struck the outside of the slide as they are spun out of the action.

 

[Saluki91]

Those look to me like cases that have struck the outside of the slide as they are spun out of the action.

Is this SOP with 1911's, or is there something I can do to prevent it?

THANKS!

 

[Blue68f100]

There is tuning you can do to the ejector to make the brass angle up more if needed. The Extractor can be tuned so it controls the brass better. Will the extractor hold a loaded round setting on the breach face, with a little shake. If not the extractor is set to light. Normally you have feeding problems if the extractor is not adj properly, but not always.

 

[Otto]

Of greater concern is the frequency of FTE

Another concern is deformed case mouths. What could be causing this? Is it possible that these are related to the FTE?

Your slide is crushing the brass against the barrel hood. Light loads combined with a heavy recoil spring can cause this. Ejector and extractor play a part as well. Here’s an example.....

 

[Saluki91]

Your slide is crushing the brass against the barrel hood. Light loads combined with a heavy recoil spring can cause this. Ejector and extractor play a part as well.

View attachment 995897

Thanks - that makes sense.

I can make sure I don't shoot light loads, and I am confident in my ability to tune the extractor if it needs a little tweak. What steps can I take (if necessary) re. the ejector?

 

[Dudedog]

Cheap to change the recoil spring if you want to shoot lighter loads as well.
Wolfe has lots of weights available for around $8 (from Wolfe, Midway, Brownells, etc)
If I remember correctly stock for .45 is 16lbs, so with your current loads you might wan to try 14 or 15.

 

[Blue68f100]

The nose on the ejector can be profiled so it contacts the brass at a lower spot making the brass kick up more. There is a picture on this as well as one on the extractor. The recoil spring for a 45acp is normally a 16# for a full size commander. Recoil is controlled more with the main (hammer) spring and the profile of the FP stop. A small radius stop greatly slows the slide down in junction with the main spring. I have a dot sight mounted on my slide and run a 14# RS. With a small radius FPStop I use a 19# main spring.

 

[Charlie98]

It appears that - for the most part - my velocities are much more in step with published data for WIN 244 and AA #5. The proverbial wrench in the works is Vectan BA9. It is considerably slower than published data. It also provided the best groups by a considerable margin. Perhaps I should just load, shoot, and not worry about the velocity...?

I shot some test loads with W244 this weekend, too... 200grn RMR's with 6.2grn W244, which is max, out of my 4" Kimber. Averaged 880fps, which is considerably slower than your data from your 5" 1911. I've also tested 6.0grn, same bullet, at 810fps. I'll tell you, it let you know you were shooting it, not at all like the WST loads I had as well. I didn't have any FT-anything problems with either the 6.0 or 6.2grn W244 load, and I run a full power (22#) spring. Seated at 1.23"

Just FYI... when you are working up test loads, and particularly for a semiauto, it pays to hand weigh each charge... that way you KNOW your charges are proper, so if you start having problems, it rules out charge drop variance. I've had some irregularities lately with test loads, and particularly with .45ACP. It's really frustrating at times. I'm probably going to go back and work up my ladders, again, HAND DROPPING each charge. Just my nickles worth of free advise....

 

[ballman6711]

Of greater concern is the frequency of FTE with this 1911. It was most frequent with the WIN 244 and AA#5 loads. It only happened once with the Vectan, and that was with the largest charge. Is this related to OAL, or perhaps a mechanical issue?

Another concern is deformed case mouths. What could be causing this? Is it possible that these are related to the FTE?

Cartridge OAL won't effect your ejected case length. The case will be the same length before and after firing. Your FTE's "could" be caused by many things, including a light charge for your gun or a mechanical issue with your gun. Your deformed case mouth is most likely caused by the shell not ejecting completely before the slide closes.

Is this SOP with 1911's, or is there something I can do to prevent it?

The suggestions above are spot on.

Some 1911's are finicky, and the shorter the barrel the worse it gets. I have a 3" 1911 that did this to brass, but almost always ejected it. A small radius firing pin stop combined with a bit of extractor tuning sorted things out for me. A lighter return spring (the one under the barrel and often called a recoil spring) will slow the slide returning to battery, and may help. The mainspring (the spring in the grip) along with the firing pin stop control the slides rearward movement. A heavier mainspring or a small radius firing pin stop will slow the slides rearward movement reducing felt recoil (essentially changing the recoil impulse) and may allow more time for the brass to eject before the slide starts forward, but be aware that the slide will be harder to rack when chambering the first round. Tuning the ejector as Blue68f100 said is another option. Many ways to tune a 1911. Also be aware that most 1911 parts (aside from springs) will probably need at least some "fitting".

I shortened the OAL of my 200gr SWC loads (1.235" seems to be as short as I can get them),

From what I've read .035 (about the thickness of a thumbnail) from the case mouth to the shoulder of a swc is about right. My gun feeds well between 1.240 ~ 1.245 for a 185gr swc. As you know, every gun is different, but if it feeds well then your OAL is about right. You can try adjusting it longer or shorter, but do be aware that shorter increases pressure and you may need to lower your charge a bit.

chris

 

[Saluki91]

I shot some test loads with W244 this weekend, too... 200grn RMR's with 6.2grn W244, which is max, out of my 4" Kimber. Averaged 880fps, which is considerably slower than your data from your 5" 1911. I've also tested 6.0grn, same bullet, at 810fps. I'll tell you, it let you know you were shooting it, not at all like the WST loads I had as well. I didn't have any FT-anything problems with either the 6.0 or 6.2grn W244 load, and I run a full power (22#) spring. Seated at 1.23"

Just FYI... when you are working up test loads, and particularly for a semiauto, it pays to hand weigh each charge... that way you KNOW your charges are proper, so if you start having problems, it rules out charge drop variance. I've had some irregularities lately with test loads, and particularly with .45ACP. It's really frustrating at times. I'm probably going to go back and work up my ladders, again, HAND DROPPING each charge. Just my nickles worth of free advise....

Thanks... $.05 well spent!

 

[Saluki91]

Cartridge OAL won't effect your ejected case length. The case will be the same length before and after firing. Your FTE's "could" be caused by many things, including a light charge for your gun or a mechanical issue with your gun. Your deformed case mouth is most likely caused by the shell not ejecting completely before the slide closes.



The suggestions above are spot on.

Some 1911's are finicky, and the shorter the barrel the worse it gets. I have a 3" 1911 that did this to brass, but almost always ejected it. A small radius firing pin stop combined with a bit of extractor tuning sorted things out for me. A lighter return spring (the one under the barrel and often called a recoil spring) will slow the slide returning to battery, and may help. The mainspring (the spring in the grip) along with the firing pin stop control the slides rearward movement. A heavier mainspring or a small radius firing pin stop will slow the slides rearward movement reducing felt recoil (essentially changing the recoil impulse) and may allow more time for the brass to eject before the slide starts forward, but be aware that the slide will be harder to rack when chambering the first round. Tuning the ejector as Blue68f100 said is another option. Many ways to tune a 1911. Also be aware that most 1911 parts (aside from springs) will probably need at least some "fitting".



From what I've read .035 (about the thickness of a thumbnail) from the case mouth to the shoulder of a swc is about right. My gun feeds well between 1.240 ~ 1.245 for a 185gr swc. As you know, every gun is different, but if it feeds well then your OAL is about right. You can try adjusting it longer or shorter, but do be aware that shorter increases pressure and you may need to lower your charge a bit.

chris

Thanks for your input. I am going to try a different extractor, with the hopes that the FTE issues will be solved by fresh steel. The extractor in the gun is original, and has seen “a few“ rounds since my grandfather purchased it in 1980.

 

[Walkalong]

An Ed Brown or Wilson extractor may fix it, and you may need to tweak the ejector, always iffy there, but if you mess it up, they aren’t to hard to replace if pinned in like they should be.

 

[Blue68f100]

May want to try tuning first.

The main thing on a extractor is that you do not want it clocking. This causes all kinds of problems. Most every thing on a 1911 requires fitting. You may want to fit a small radius FP stop while your replacing the extractor. I would go with the EGW practical extractor over the others due to the shorter reach. If a extractor is too long the end hits the brass above the extractor groove pushing it away from the breach face. Or a John Harrison No Notch so it can be fit correctly as it should be. Just wish they would make some in SS.

Here is a link to a good guide for fitting the extractor. https://www.1911forum.com/threads/steve-in-allentown-extractor-fitting.829865/#post-13120114

John Harrison has some fitting instruction on his site too. https://shop.harrisoncustom.com/

 

[Saluki91]

May want to try tuning first.

The main thing on a extractor is that you do not want it clocking. This causes all kinds of problems. Most every thing on a 1911 requires fitting. You may want to fit a small radius FP stop while your replacing the extractor. I would go with the EGW practical extractor over the others due to the shorter reach. If a extractor is too long the end hits the brass above the extractor groove pushing it away from the breach face. Or a John Harrison No Notch so it can be fit correctly as it should be. Just wish they would make some in SS.

Here is a link to a good guide for fitting the extractor. https://www.1911forum.com/threads/steve-in-allentown-extractor-fitting.829865/#post-13120114

John Harrison has some fitting instruction on his site too. https://shop.harrisoncustom.com/

Thanks!!! That is the extractor I ordered, and I picked up a EGW FP stop as well.